Apparently, Rob Schneider thinks ALL CAPS is a substitute for having a clue: A lower-cased, fact-based rebuttal

Anyone unsure of where Rob Schneider fell on the vaccine conspiracy scale can rest assured: he’s way down there on the sanitation-and-hygiene-wiped-out-infectious-disease-claiming, homeopath-quoting, Louise-Kuo-Habakus-praising end of things. To wit, check out this comment, which he left earlier this morning on my recent Txchnologist piece, “Vaccine denilaism isn’t funny, so why does HuffPost give Rob Schneider a forum?

This is Rob Schneider.

To quote Bernadine Healy, MD., former director, National Institutes of Health (NIH), “There are unanswered questions about vaccine safety… No one should be threatened by the pursuit of this knowledge.” The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (“1986 Act”) describes vaccines as “unavoidably unsafe.” FACT, In the last 2 decades more than 2 Billion Dollars has been paid to families of children injured or killed by vaccine injuries, paid by tax payers, (The 1986 Act indemnified Vaccine manufacturer’s against lawsuits).

The bitter truth is 3 out of 4 vaccine victims are turned away without any compensation through THE SPECIAL COURT. The heavy burden is placed on the families to PROVE vaccine injury, not the Vaccine Manufacturer having to prove it’s product’s safety and efficacy.

This is almost the exact opposite of what actually happens in the Vaccine Court, where there is a much lower bar to prove causality than there would be in a regular court of law. The entire Vaccine Court is set up to give the overwhelming benefit of the doubt to parents. I have a whole chapter that deals with this subject in The Panic Virus.

We must challenge the assumption that vaccination mandates are strictly necessary for the public good. These mandates have not been studied empirically.

This is false. Vaccines are probably the most studied public health intervention in history. That’s why we know, beyond any doubt, that there is no causal connection between vaccines and autism. Check out the Institute of Medicine’s August 2011 report, “Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality” for a discussion of some of these hundreds of studies. (You could also flip through the 100 pages of bibliography and source notes I included in my book.)

INFECTIOUS DISEASE MORTALITY HAD A PRECIPITOUS AND SUSTAINED DECLINE DURING THE ENTIRE TWENTIETH CENTURY! BEFORE THE ADVENT OF FEDERAL VACCINATION POLICY.

These two things — the beneficial effect of public sanitation on public health and the ability of vaccines to protect against infectious diseases — are not mutually exclusive. Tougher drunk driving laws and safer cars are both factors in lowering fatal car accidents…or, to put it in terms Schneider might be able to better understand: An unusually hot summer and a big blockbuster hit could both effect movie ticket sales. So while it’s undeniably true that many public health efforts played a role in, for instance, the decline in measles, it was vaccines that all but wiped out the disease in the US. But don’t take my word for it — here are the facts! In between 1917 and 1919, the civilian population in the US had more than a million measles infections and more than 21,000 measles deaths. In the 1950s, the number of infections had been cut basically in half and the number of annual deaths was around 500. Then, in 1963, the measles vaccine was introduced:Figure and data in previous graph from: Hinman, et al., “Impact of Measles in the United States,” Review of Infectious Diseases, Vol. 5, No. 3. (May-June 1983), pp. 439-444.)

Health officials attributed these gains to the significant investments the country made in modern sanitation and hygiene infrastructure.

Really? What “health officials” are you talking about? Because I don’t know any public health official who has said that vaccines have not been a major factor in the decline in infectious disease in the twentieth century.

Furthermore, the government must prove that those who are vaccinated will be harmed by those who are NOT vaccinated.

Is Julieanna Metcalf, a fully vaccinated girl who was placed in a medically induced coma after being infected with Hib, proof enough for you? How about the San Diego infant who was too young to have been fully vaccinated who caught measles after one of Bob Sears’s unvaccinated patients was infected while on vacation in Switzerland? Or maybe you’d like to talk to some of the parents whose infants have died of pertussis?

The Government surrenders it’s moral authority when it requires children to receive vaccines it knows will cause death or permanent injury to some.

Ten infants died of pertussis in California, your home state, in 2010. There have been Hib deaths in the US and measles deaths in the UK over the past several years. This is reality, not the paranoid ravings of conspiracy theorists; the government would surrender its moral authority if it ignored these facts.

There needs to be an open public debate.

There has been an open public debate — for years and years and years. The sad fact that places like The Huffington Post give you attention is evidence that there continues to be a public debate long after the answers have come in. Just because you or Jenny McCarthy or Generation Rescue or any of the other vaccine denialist groups out there haven’t gotten the answer you want doesn’t mean there hasn’t been a debate.

Vaccines can be a useful tool against disease.

We agree!

But there needs to be procedures put into place to test those who may be VULNERABLE to the very real side effects of this invasive medical procedure and the increasing toxic load placed on these small people.

What increasing toxic load are you talking about? Due to our improved understanding of immunology, vaccines have many times fewer immunogenic proteins today than at any time in the past. When you were growing up, you received more than 3,000 immunogenic proteins; children today receive less than 150. (On the off chance that math is not your strong suit, 150 is five percent of 3,000 — which means it’s much, much smaller.)

Unfortunately, mandated vaccination represents a limitation on basic human rights.
Thank you,
Rob Schneider, Father.

Hey, guess what — I’m a father too! So is Levi Johnston and Barack Obama and Jack White and Stephen Colbert. The fact that we’ve all successfully procreated doesn’t give us any special knowledge into vaccines, infectious disease, or public health.

Please read “The Vaccine Guide” by Randall Neustaedter OMD

I love Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark! Oh, wait — that stands for “Oriental medical doctor,” doesn’t it? I have a better idea: If you want to read about vaccines, how about reading a book by an actual immunologist like Paul Offit?

and “Vaccine Epidemic” by Louise Kuo Habakus, MA and Mary Holland, JD (research scholar, NYU School of Law)

I’ve spent many hours with Louise, and have read “Vaccine Epidemic,” a book which includes a contribution from, and several celebrations of, Andrew Wakefield. If you believe that the CDC is made up of Nazi stormtroopers who spend their every waking moment dreaming about ways to maim and kill innocent children, this is definitely the book for you!

 

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128 Responses to Apparently, Rob Schneider thinks ALL CAPS is a substitute for having a clue: A lower-cased, fact-based rebuttal

  1. Ren says:

    Bravo! Bravo! I was revving up to answer to Mr. Schneider myself, but I’ll just point to your responses instead. Awesome job as always.

  2. Health freedom 2 says:

    A Royal Commission was appointed in 1889 to investigate the history of vaccination in the United Kingdom. Evidence mounted that smallpox epidemics increased dramatically after 1854, the year the compulsory vaccination law went into effect. In the London epidemic of 1857-1859, there were more than 14,000 deaths; in the 1863-1865 outbreak 20,000 deaths; and from 1871 to 1873 all of Europe was swept by the worst smallpox epidemic in recorded history. In England and Wales alone, 45,000 people died of smallpox at a time when, according to official estimates, 97 percent of the population had been vaccinated.
    http://www.foundationforhealthchoice.com/articlera

    When Japan started compulsory vaccination against smallpox in 1872 the disease steadily increased each year. In 1892 more than 165,000 cases occurred with 30,000 deaths in a completely vaccinated population. During the same time period Australia had no compulsory vaccination laws, and only three deaths occurred from smallpox over a 15-year period.

    • Guy Chapman says:

      You “forgot” to mention that smallpox was eradicated by vaccination

      While 300-500 million people died of smallpox during the 20th Century there have been no smallpox deaths at all since the disease was eradicated in 1977. By vaccination.

      Just in case you missed the point, smallpox killed tens of millions of people every single year, was the leading cause of death in some aboriginal populations, and has become completely extinct with zero recorded cases anywhere since 1977, so zero deaths. At all. Anywhere.

      Because of vaccines, probably a hundred million people are alive today who would otherwise have died of smallpox alone.

      We can also prevent pertussis, poliomyelitis, hib, menincococcal disease and many other scourges with vaccines. Unfortunately a small cadre of delusional idiots keeps undermining the effort with stupid sophistry like yours.

      Just to be clear on the main point here: half a billion or so dead of smallpox in the 20th Century, but zero since the disease was eradicated by vaccination. Got that?

      • Health freedom 2 says:

        not so, even Jonas Salk admitted that his vaccine did not work! We have been lied to. It may be hard to believe, but it doesn’t make it any lesss.

        • Ren says:

          Ms. Randal, can you please show us where Salk stated his vaccine didn’t work? Something beside your word would be nice, for a change.

          • Health freedom 2 says:

            yes I would, but the moderator has informed me that I am not allowed to use links. I did post research by Russell Blaylock and Professor Boyd Haley, a world expert on mercury toxicity. If you do a word search on Jonas Salk and the court testimony on his admission that his vaccine did not work you will find something.

            That’s clearly not true — if you look at the dozen-plus comments you’ve submitted, many contain links. I have let you know, multiple times, that neither you nor anyone else can simply send spam comments with a single sentence and a collection of links. This is meant for discussion, now sloganeering.
            – Seth

          • Guy Chapman says:

            No, the moderator told you to stop link spamming. There is a difference. However, it is simple to cite a research paper, just quote the DOI number and anyone can look it up. Any credible research paper will have a DOI reference, so there is no problem whatsoever citing your sources is there?

          • HealthFreedom2 says:

            Seems you are in violation along with the moderator disclosing personal information:
            The Federal Trade Commission, the nation’s chief privacy policy and enforcement agency, issued a final report setting forth best practices for websites to protect the privacy of American consumers and give them greater control over the collection and use of their personal data.

        • Guy Chapman says:

          When you say “not so”, that is what is technically known as “wrong”. Smallpox is extinct.

          It’s not pining, it’s passed on! This virus is no more! It has ceased to be! It’s expired and gone to meet its maker! It’s a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! Its metabolic processes are now history! It’s off the twig! It’s kicked the bucket, it’s shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-VIRUS!!

        • cristina maria kassama bag says:

          well said !! for this reason is time to consider that vaccines can be dangerous for our kids and babies. We do not need to inject such thing, since contain heavy toxic metals and many other toxins, if we make propery research about the ingredients for the vaccines then we can realize that our special kids have been poisoned by vaccines

          • Guy Chapman says:

            Cobblers. The supposed “toxins” have no provable effect, most have been removed anyway, and thanks to the antivax aka health fooldom lobby the USA is currently experiencing its worst and most deadly pertussis outbreak in decades. Way to go, science deniers.

  3. Health freedom 2 says:

    official legal complaints.

    In the complaint, the scientists outline in great detail exactly how Merck manipulated the efficacy results in order to be able to say they had a 95% effective vaccine so that they could meet the fairytale goal of vaccine-induced “herd immunity by 2010.” Well, it turns out that the vaccine could not meet the goal that CDC projected to eradicate mumps by 2010, BECAUSE the vaccine, in its current state cannot reliably confer immunity, and is in fact a dilute version of what it once was when Maurice Hilleman invented it using the virus of his five year old daughter. The same viral mumps strain has been in use in every mumps or MMR vaccine Merck has made since 1967.

    In order to mass-produce live but non-infective vaccine virus, the “wild” virus from 1967 has had to be “passaged” through different cells or animals over and over and over. In that passaging, mutations take place that render the virus non-infective or “attenuated” but also, those many years of passaging the same original viral strain has lowered the antigenicity, or the antibody-stimulating capacity of the virus.

    http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/06/25/scien… …more
    User ID:http://slate.com/Li6h7ImeGpET1w894%2BPtQKeB1kOnZJeb1KwC7h9er/3pJVngS6iyZg%3D%3D/User IP:

    • Ren says:

      I just wanted to let you know that the reason I know your name, Ms. Randal, is because you foolishly asked to follow me on twitter. YOUR twitter handle leads to your full name and Facebook profile page, which I suggest you lock down.

      No, you will not be allowed to follow me on Twitter. No anti-science allowed.

  4. Health freedom 2 says:

    Merck virologists Stephen Krahling and Joan Wlochowski claimed in their unsealed 2010 complaint that they “witnessed firsthand the improper testing and data falsification in which Merck engaged to artificially inflate the vaccine’s efficacy findings.” After a two year investigation the Justice Department has refused to rule on the case. Merck continues to deny the allegations.
    http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/328392#ixzz20hKTAkwa
    Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/328392#ixzz20kq0KlXA

    • Chris says:

      Which mumps vaccine strain is discussed: Jeryl Lynn, Urabe, Rubini, or Leningrad-Zagreb? Be specific, and tell us how it compares to the other three strains.

  5. Health freedom 2 says:

    Dr. James R. Shannon, former director of the National institute of health declared, “the only safe vaccine is one that is never used.”
    http://www.ggb.waeusa.com/Why_you_should_avoid_taking_vaccines.pdf

    Four comments in a row automatically sets off the spam filter. If you have something you want to say, you can say it. If you just want to cut-and-paste from web sites, you can do that on your own blog. Thanks,
    Seth

    • Caroline Shipley says:

      cut and paste, goal post shifting, etc, etc, etc. Typical antivax troll tactics here.

      You disagree with Health Freedom 2, and you are subject to the full antivax treatment! Health Freedom 2 doesn’t want us to have “health freedom”, just the illusion of it.

    • Andrea Leong says:

      Vaccine product info states the risks of possible side-effects. What it doesn’t mention is the risks of NOT vaccinating, i.e. much greater chance of contracting the disease, and if so, more severe disease.

      For parents, it’s not even a question of risk-to-your-child vs. protection-of-the-community; it’s about risk-to-your-child vs. protection-of-YOUR-ACTUAL-CHILD.

      • cristina maria kassama bag says:

        but what about vaccines which contain heavy toxic metals and many others toxins???? we know Autism and many other Syndromes have strong link with heavy toxic metals, just compare the symptoms caused by heavy toxic metal and vaccines . There are many way to increase immune system in natural way as possible

  6. Jo says:

    INFECTIOUS DISEASE MORTALITY HAD A PRECIPITOUS AND SUSTAINED DECLINE DURING THE ENTIRE TWENTIETH CENTURY! BEFORE THE ADVENT OF FEDERAL VACCINATION POLICY.

    I’m curious how someone who believes this interprets the resurgence of pertussis and measles?

    • Andrea Leong says:

      Do you know how many nutters are choosing to not vaccinate these days? Now that many memories of children dying from VPDs has passed away with the older generations, “conscientious” objectors are cropping up all over the place.

      • John says:

        I am one of those nutters, and I can tell you that if you did your own independent research, you would switch to agreeing with me.

        Just look at the latest settlement with GSK, they freaking admitted that they faked the results of medications!!!! Come on, what else do you need?

        • Mike says:

          John,

          I have my doctorate in pharmacology, done real research (not typing in “vaccines” into Goolge), and come up with the exact opposite conclusion. In mainstream medicine, there is no discussion as to the safety and efficacy of vaccines. You are some guy with internet access whose opinion matters nothing because you do not have the education or background to understand scientific literature. Please, stick to your area of expertise (whether it is lawn care, construction, janitorial work, or whatever it is you do) and leave science to the scientists. Thanks!

          • Twyla says:

            “In mainstream medicine, there is no discussion as to the safety and efficacy of vaccines.”

            And you think that’s a good thing?

          • Guy Chapman says:

            There is discussion, just no informed dissent from the view that vaccines are an unequivocal good. This is science, there is always discussion. That’s the funniest bit about the idea of (say) global climate science conspiracy; scientists really suck at toeing the line when they have an opinion on anything!

            Antivaxers seem to forget: Wakefield managed to get his fraudulent study published, because the publications were open minded enough to take the paper. It’s not their fault that he violated the basic rules of medical ethics, he has nobody to blame for that but himself. Any credibly put together piece of science will get published, it’s just that there is no credible scientific dissent on vaccines these days. The jury returned ages ago with a not guilty verdict.

        • Andrea Leong says:

          After majoring and doing my honours in microbiology, I’m now part-way through a PhD in the aforementioned subject. All the articles I get side-tracked into reading, whilst searching the literature, lead me to think we should defend ourselves against transmissible diseases with SCIENCE.

          Yep, a pharmaceutical company did something fraudulent with regards to an antidepressant medication. How does this invalidate the science behind vaccines?

        • Josie says:

          I’m curious about what you define as “independent research.” I see this term used all over the place in the anti-vax world, and it frustrates me. This is used as an excuse to not believe the MOUNTAINS of peer-reviewed, rigorous, methodological research that have found vaccines to be safe and effective, and the mountains of public health research that have shown the difference made by vaccines. It’s an excuse to dismiss logic-based arguments out of hand, by denying the entire framework on which it is built.
          Excuse me, but peer reviewed scientific method is the only self-examining, systematic, exhaustive framework that exists for isolating, evaluating and distilling data. Until anti-vaxers can learn to meet that burden of proof, that level of evidence, they are simply manipulating people to believe using the same arguments, tricks and emotional stories used by con men.
          Oh. And if you are suggesting she do independent research, you should show your evidence, too. Only fair.

  7. Rodrigo says:

    To “Health Freedom 2″,

    If you ever intend to be taken seriously, you’ll definitely need to improve your sources for something of a higher quality than:

    - “Go Green” Gas Beads website (http://www.ggb.waeusa.com/)
    - Digital Journal
    - Vaccination Council
    - Slate daily magazine (depending on The Washington Post, a newspaper)
    - the Foundation for Health Choice

    None of this are scientific journals, just magazines.

    If you want to start looking into real knowledge, try this search engines:

    1. Scirus, on http://www.scirus.com
    2. Google SCHOLAR, on http://scholar.google.cl/

    Find something there first and then we can talk about it.

    Cheers.

    • Health freedom 2 says:

      The research is out there, as well as the table deaths, and children who have been parmanently harmed with the increase in the vaccine schedule. When you have a loved one, or friend who has been effected, who will you listen to then? Mainstream media is contolled by big business interests.

      • Guy Chapman says:

        Yes, the research is out there. It shows that vaccination is probably the single biggest lifesaver in medical history. It also shows that anti-vaccination cranks have been making similar zombie arguments since day 1, with occasional shifts as it becomes absolutely inescapably obvious that something really is total bollocks. One thing remains constant: it’s always the vaccines. For any value of “it”.

        • Demali says:

          I have a feeling that you would feel differently if suddenly after receiving the vaccinations your child changed from a happy, healthy, normal child to an autistic, behavior disordered, or sickly child. You also might feel differently if after receiving the vaccinations your infant screams in pain, then becomes ill and stops breathing.
          I hope you never know what that pain is like. Many of us DO know.

          Those of us who were children in the 50′s and 60′s remember getting mumps, chicken pox, measles, etc. and developing natural immunity to those diseases. There were very few special education students in those days, unlike now.

          I have friends with children that were never vaccinated. They were almost never sick, unlike my children and all the other students in the school that would succumb to most infections that were “going around”.

          Vaccination should be an informed CHOICE not a MANDATE. I wish I had known years ago what I know now.

          • Chris says:

            “There were very few special education students in those days, unlike now. ”

            That is because the first version of the Individuals with Disability Education Act did not exist until the mid 1970s. There was no special education.

            Instead disabled children were warehoused in institutions, where they were out of sight and mind. And where they were abused, and even experimented on.

            I suggest you look up one of the worst: Willowbrook School.

          • Guy Chapman says:

            Correlation is not causation. Belief in false causal inferences was pro-survival back when we lived in caves, now it’s not.

          • Josie says:

            Actually, no. That’s not what I’d do, because what I DID do when my sister’s son showed signs that led to an autism diagnosis, I didn’t throw my science degrees or research training out the window, I thought critically.
            I looked to the independent, peer reviewed medical and public health literature (I even read literature from Generation Rescue and other vaccine org’s and was disgusted by their lack of evidence). I looked for the EVIDENCE around vaccine safety and autism – the studies where all the heads were counted, all the adverse events logged (if any), and all the statistical calculations made. So when my sweet, adorable, brown-eyed nephew was diagnosed with autism at 2 1/2, I didn’t let my concern for him kill my critical thinking, I put my critical thinking to work to identify how he could get better, and to find out how (if at all) we could help his little brother avoid the same fate.
            And it turns out that because Autism is a “spectrum disorder,” we don’t really know how it’s caused completely. It’s likely to be multiple causes, involving epigenetic factors (gene/environment interactions). But as a researcher and someone who works with research scientists to help them start their projects and get research grants to do good science, I was dismayed to find how hard the anti-vax’ers emotional pleas and illogical arguments had made it for the real research to be done on autism… because lobby groups push governments and foundations to spend the money researching a proven, non-existent relationship between vaccines and autism instead of identifying the different types and causes of autism, how the disease progresses, and what children are most vulnerable to the condition.
            THAT is the information that made me feel differently after my nephew’s autism diagnosis – that’s the knowledge that made me angry for my nephew, upset at how far we could have come by now to making his life better, if anti-vax activists hadn’t used lies and manipulation to make autism research a scary and difficult place for scientists who are not looking at vaccine-autism connections.

    • cristina maria kassama bag says:

      when someone like Dr Wakefield try to prove by his honest research about MMR vaccines as soon as possible Drug companies try to destroy his reputation, this is because they afraid to see their fault in public , they buy media , doctors and all of them lie to all of us!!

      so many professionals already checked further about the danger of vaccines, but unfortunatelly Big Pharma try to take control of system, and they are destroying many families health! One of them is my son!!

      And about diabetes, why doctors continue insist to prescribe so many useless drugs and even aspartame that may cause even cancer ?
      My mother has diabetes and none of ordinary doctors helped her so far !
      None of ordinary doctors saved mostly of my relatives who died from cancer in vain, they died because the system only care about profits, they are selling their useless drugs , and push us on chemo!
      now explain the reason why so many ppl died in vain, u can be the next one!! if u have cancer what u should do in this case, chemo and drugs ???????? so good luck, in case if u become victim of this horrible system!

      Health freedom thanks for spreading the truth!! keep strong and continue your great work

  8. Health freedom 2 says:

    HealthFreedom2
    http://genesgreenbook.com/content/proof-vaccines-d
    History shows us that vaccines did NOT eradicate the diseases that plagued humanity. That is a common misconception — in actual fact, it was better sanitation and hygiene in the cities that prevented the spread of diseases. These charts, from official sources, show us that vaccines (1) were not responsible, and are not necessary, for eliminating infectious diseases, (2) are not effective, and (3) are dangerous.
    see the graphs

    • Caroline Shipley says:

      Improved sanitation and hygiene certainly played a big part (the London 1854 cholera epidemic was cut short by removing a single water pump handle in Broad Street, which Dr John Snow had tracked down as the source of the outbreak).

      But improved sanitation and hygiene only goes so far. Sanitation didn’t eliminate smallpox – only vaccination could do that.

    • Chris says:

      The man who did those graphs would have received bad marks in fourth grade for the way he treated the data:
      http://www.software3d.com/Home/Vax/Graphs.php

  9. Parker Nicholas says:

    Rob Schneider must not be getting any acting gigs if this is the sort of garbage he needs to post to get attention. I, too, am a father; I do not believe that is sufficient to question the medical advances that have been made since I was born. Ol’ Robbie needs to show us his credentials if he wants to start drinking his Kool-Aid and gambling with our childrens’ health. Otherwise, he has all the credibility of Jenny McCarthy, minus the breasts.

    • Demali says:

      I for one will make an effort to watch his “acting gigs” because obviously he is educating himself and dares to step outside the Big Pharma box.

  10. green-and-healthy says:

    What toxic load you ask?
    It is a tired and unscientific argument to say that because the antigenic load has decreased we can shoot up babies with more and more vaccines.
    Vaccines contain so much more than just viral and bacterial antigens.
    Here are a few of the toxic ingredients:
    Aluminum adjuvant: causes autoimmune diseases
    Twin 80: destroys the blood-brain-barrier
    (patented in some brain cancer drugs exactly for that reason to aid the delivery of the drug to the brain).
    formaldehyde (you know the one in embalming fluid): carcinogenic
    mercury (yes, it still can be found in the flu vaccine recommended for pregnant women): neurotoxic, genotoxic – it kills nerve cells much better than it kills bacteria unfortunately.

    And before you say that some of these ingredients are abundant in nature, shooting them into a baby is still not okay because it bypasses our natural defenses.

    • Guy Chapman says:

      Funny, the more we vaccinate people, the longer the average human lifespan gets. It’s almost as if vaccines work and you are spouting a load of tosh…

    • Rodrigo says:

      Please define these words and terms for me:

      1. Toxins
      2. Destroy
      3. Carcinogenic
      4. Neurotoxic
      5. Genotoxic
      6. Autoimmune disease

      Let’s start with that. I want to know if you understand them properly before we start arguing.

      Oh, by the way, I see your new source http://genesgreenbook.com (Gene’s Green Book) is not a scientific one as well, just like the ones before. Actually this one is colourfully embellished with Conspiracy Theory articles. Do I see a pattern here?

      Cheers.

      P.S.: Did you know there’s a substantial difference between “destroying” and “bypassing” something?.

  11. Chris says:

    It depresses me beyond belief that this nonsense (ie @robshneider and health freedom 2) is still out there. These people are about as sensible as the “earth is ruled by lizard aliens” people. There can hardly be a more vigorously checked area of medicine than vaccines. FFS, there is ZERO (for the ones struggling with that, it means none or nothing) evidence of a causual link between any vaccine and autism.
    Those that continue to claim otherwise, not only risk being responsible for an increase in measles (no bloody joke for the victims) but also they do damage to the search for the cause and any possible cure for autism.
    Such people aren’t just “wacky off the wall kooks” but basically b******s who risk people’s health.

    • Demali says:

      If you believe so strongly that vaccines are the only protection available from disease and have yourself injected with them, then you shouldn’t feel threatened by someone who isn’t vaccinated because you are “immune” from the diseases, right?

      • Ren says:

        Wrong. There are those who are too old, too young, too sick, or too frail to receive vaccines. Or, if they do receive the vaccines, their immune systems are not up to the task of adapting. Please stop using this ant-vaccine trope. You’re embarrassing yourself.

  12. Achsel says:

    Lifespan longer? Think again. We are now looking at 1 in 3 American men will get cancer, 1 in every 2 women, 1 in 88 children have autism, 1 in 6 have a neurlogical/developmental disorder, 1 in 5 has asthma, catstrophic rises in cancer in children, life-threatening food allergies, huge growth in Type I diabetes in children, skyrocketing alzheimers rates. No, in fact we are being told that this generation of children, the most highly vaccinated in history and in the world will now be the first generation to not outlive their parents. I’m afraid we have traded off infectious disease for lifelong, debilitating, life-shortening disorders that will severley affect the quality and duration of life. But hey, everyone seems perfectly OK with that and unwilling to look for reasons beyond mindless walking around tracks across America to feed the ravenous beast that is research that never intends to find the real causes let alone solutions beyond pushing more chemicals at perfectly healthy people and the Cut, Poison, Burn, and Profit of modern medicine. No thanks!

    • Cus says:

      @Achsel
      Firstly. You’re wrong.
      Secondly. You’re wrong.
      Tertiary. (This will be a long point)
      This generation will live the longest actually, the babies born today have an expected life expentancy of above 90 years. (Go look at the statistics for any first world country.)
      Rises in autism are expected due to its current reporting rate and changes in psychiatirc definition meant that previous diseases are now classified as autism.
      Diabties is actually contributed to increased sucrose and fructose intake due to the over use of corn syrup in todays foodstuffs.
      The cause for asthma is currently understood but is expected to be due to mild parasites (such as hookworms) being irradicated.
      Infact infectious diseases stunt growth and lower life expectancy by something like 4-5 years. Go look at your third world countries and tell me how long they live.
      So next time you post something. Please make it relevant to the previously discussed discourse. Please read your relevant facts. Please do not rely on half baked hypothesis. Please do not imply logic by simply putting one new sentence on the other side of a full stop. Please just stop.

      • Demali says:

        I find it interesting that there are many more people now living into their 90′s, even 100′s and they grew up long before vaccines were widely used. Therefore, I disagree that vaccines are the reason people will live longer. Since vaccines were mandated, more and more people are having immune system and neurological disorders, not to mention cancer. I guess that’s just coincidence.

        • Chris says:

          They are the ones that survived childhood. The estimates include the fact that more children get to actually grow up than they did a century ago.

          You see “average life span” basically takes all of the ages of those who died in a given year. So in 1950 more kids died of infectious diseases than they do now, so the average lifespan then is lower than now.

          Even in the 18th century, if a person managed to survive measles, smallpox, diphtheria, cholera, etc. they could live into their 80s. It is just that was not so common.

          For now, those who were born over eighty years ago but died seventy years ago would be included in the calculation of the average lifespan of the 1940s. While the now living eighty year old who dies in a decade will be in the calculation for average lifespan in the 2020s.

          There are some wonderful visual explanations at:
          http://www.gapminder.org/videos/

        • This posting proves nothing about vaccination as a medical and clinical policy. However, it does demonstrate that you have next to no clue about statistics.
          Do either of the words “survivor” or “outlier” mean anything to you?

    • Health freedom 2 says:

      you said it sister!

    • Guy Chapman says:

      Yup, we now live long enough to die of cancer instead of dying young from illness, childbirth or industrial injury. Vaccines and other immunisations play a significant part in that longer life.

      Does your local hospital have a polio ward still? Where’s your local tuberculosis hospital? How many people in your community died in the last smallpox outbreak, and when was it?

      • Demali says:

        Do you believe that vaccines are SO safe that you would be willing to personally and legally guarantee a parent that NO harm or death from the vaccines series will ever come to their child? If that’s the case, I’ll recommend that all parents come to you to have their children vaccinated so you can be held personally responsible.

        Incidentally, polio and smallpox were on the wane prior to the dramatic push for vaccinations. Look it up.

        • Ren says:

          Why don’t YOU look it up in a peer-reviewed, reputable scientific journal or textbook and report to us your findings. It’s hard to believe the word of an anti-vaxer these days… What with all the lying and frauds.

        • Guy Chapman says:

          A more pertinent question is: doe the whole population risk go up or down when people stop vaccinating? The answer is, of course, that it goes up. The paranoid few trying to “protect” their children from mainly illusory harms such as autism, end up risking not only their own children but everyone else’s.

          My children were all vaccinated.

          The real irony here is that the anti-vaccination cranks only get any significant traction because these days so few people die of vaccine preventable disease, because of course the vaccines protect them. It does appear that it is going to require another generation blighted by deaths form pertussis and the like to remind people why vaccine compliance was so high in the recent past. Our parents and grandparents vaccinated their children because so many people knew someone who had died or suffered serious harm from a vaccine preventable disease.

    • Chris says:

      Seriously? You actually believe a self-selected Internet survey done by a homeopath! That is hilarious.

      Too bad it was not pharyngulated.

      • Demali says:

        So only charts and studies sponsored by the pharmaceutical companies are valid, apparently.

        • Ren says:

          They are valid if the study design is solid. Hint: An online survey by a homeopath who opposes vaccines and whose survey has leading question is not a solid design.

          They are also valid if others outside the pharmaceutical industry have duplicated the findings also with solid study designs.

        • Josie says:

          Also – five out of the possible 12 diseases are diagnosed based on subjective criteria (meaning there is no official diagnostic test, they are symptomatic diagnoses). Surveys done with completely independent collection methods are utterly uncomparable. It’s the proverbial “comparing apples to oranges.” The samples are not the same. If the doctor had surveyed a sample of 8000 parents randomly chosen, that probably would have been enough to show a statistically significant result (a term that means the sample result is shown to be the same as if you surveyed the ENTIRE population) for this research question, OR, if all of the data from 8000 randomly selected children in, say, health records, was examined for diagnosis of these conditions, EITHER method would have yielded a result that a scientific conclusion could have been based on. But in this instance, all we can say is that the samples are different, especially from the quote right before the bar chart: “Most of the respondents to the survey were from the U.S.” while the comparison group is from the KIGGS health survey of German kids. No conclusions possible. There’s a reason for scientific and research methods – they allow us to reach independent conclusions. Why wouldn’t the researchers just use the KIGGS health survey results for unvaccinated kids as well? Surely that would be more rigorous?
          So, another major concern is that the vaccine injury site is still collecting surveys from parents for this survey – parents who’ve already seen the “results” in that bar chart and whose results are now skewed by that knowledge, particularly because the survey asks for parents’ own self-report of their child’s diagnoses. This survey is meaningless, polluted by the conclusions of its supporters in the vaccine community. I feel bad that any money was spent on this.

  13. John says:

    To all who thinks vaccines are safe, I suggest you read the *actual* research paper published by many pharmaceuticals that shows the efficacy of such vaccines.

    I stopped believing in vaccines after I read parts of the paper that described the clinical trial for the “swine flu”. The paper took 100 people and gave them the vaccine for the flu, and found that 1.8 of them got the flu, then they took another group and vaccinated them all and found that only .8 of them got the flu. So what did they conclude? The flu shot decreases the flu by 100%!!! Wow!

    Remember that word confirmation bias? Where they claim that religious people only publish the “good” studies that show prayer helps people out?

    sounds like projection to me… bc the pharmaceuticals run millions of trials and only publish the few that actually work.

    of course, you can go on eating “low fat” “high-sugar” food. Or Aspartame, which still has not been “proven” to be dangerous.

    • Old Geezer says:

      “I stopped believing in vaccines after I read parts of the paper that described the clinical trial for the “swine flu”.” Well gosh, John, I always base my judgements on reading “parts” of a paper. And apparently, this paper was written by a bottle of pills, a “pharmaceutical?” Further, the paper concluded that two groups who both got immunized somehow had differing outcomes thereby proving that immunization was something or other…. I lost your thread at that point. Perhaps you should have read the other “parts” before trying to quote it to us. Confirmation bias? Indeed.

    • Chris says:

      And yet you did not post that study’s title, journal and date. Why should we believe you?

  14. Proud Pappa says:

    Seth, I’m curious what you think of this . . .

    “Conflicts of interest affect more than research. They also directly shape the way medicine is practiced, through their influence on practice guidelines issued by professional and governmental bodies and through their effects on FDA decisions. ”
    -Marcia Angell, former editor of New England Journal of Medicine
    full article: http://bostonreview.net/BR35.3/angell.php

    A few friends of mine are big fans of yours.
    Thanks,

  15. John C says:

    Hello John,
    As someone who also holds the name John I am appalled at your abuse of the name. People called John are reasonable, balanced and not prone to jumping onto boats being sailed by self-proclaimed experts in their field. Leave the whale.to websites alone and try OVID or Medline instead.
    Yours,
    John X

  16. cristina maria kassama bag says:

    As mother of recovery Autistic and ADHD child, I must say that is time for the drug companies to review about certain vaccines, some of them still unsafe: DTP, specially DTaP, my son lost speech just after this shot, MMR, Hib, HepB and many others.

    Some professionals claim that certain vaccines don’t contain thimerosal, but this affirmation is wrong! we know that some countries still could ban at all mercury for the vaccines.

    We know that MMR does not contain mercury, but we know also that measles virus may cause bowel inflammatory, since this vaccine also contain anothers 2 virus, all together may cause so many troubles if babies and kids have abnormal gut and weak immune system but none of doctors check further about this important issue

    My son lost speech after DTaP, this is not funny indeed, this happened because he had abnormal gut, due overdose of antibiotics, that destroy his gut ! Pediatricians prescribe non stop drugs to our babies and kids, he was just 6 months when doctor prescribed about 3 antibiotics, so I am not surprised that he became more ill than ever

    Pediatricians push us on drugs and vaccines, but they never care if their immune system respond well drugs and vaccines , I do agree with Dr Natasha Campbell McBride, since vaccines are not safe at all, we must delay or avoid completely , until we are sure our kids have strong immune system

    But now I completely against vaccines, until Drug Companies review all of them without any fault!

    • cristina maria kassama bag says:

      I wrote wrong above, some countries still could not ban thimerosal, many professionals or parents tried to persuade me about this one, but and about anothers heavy toxic metals, and many others toxins!! why our babies and kids need this kind of immunization, and why the number of vaccines increase so faster ????????? is because Big Pharma only care about their profit!! My child would not suffer this much if doctors did not make so many mistakes . And by the way one nurse reject to inject MMR shots for my son, after I learned that she knew the truth about this vaccine and she witnessed some kids injured by MMR vaccines , some nurses know the truth but if they tell the truth directly , they would lose their own jobs

      • Ren says:

        Pop quiz.

        How much money does “Big Pharma” make from vaccines?

        How much money does “Big Pharma” make from the treatment of vaccine-preventable diseases by way of antibiotics, antivirals, and other medications for things like meningitis, influenza, measles encephalitis, etc.?

        I know you can answer this. You can Google pretty.

        • cristina maria kassama bag says:

          so why drug companies insist to promote more and more their products, by giving certain gifts to the doctors??????? I heard that if doctors don’t push us into drugs and vaccines, they may lose their jobs, in Turkey if they suggest natural medications, such homeopathic one, they may lose their medical license! One doctor said to me , the system inside hospitals force them to push us on vaccines and drugs, they do not have right to even to mention about the side effects of such things ! They are hiding the truth! and they almost killed my son!

          • Ren says:

            Anecdotal. “I heard”, “One doctor said to me”… Can you provide any actual facts. You know, the kind that would not be struck down as hearsay in a court? How about that standard, just for kicks?

            “They are hiding the truth!” Not really, not if you figured it all out. Then it’s not really hiding it, is it? Listen, just because reality disagrees with you doesn’t mean some big conspiracy is going on.

            In Turkey? Really? Again, where is the proof? Did someone tell you that? Did you read about it in some blog?

  17. Health freedom 2 says:

    I firmly believe today, as I did when this article was published, that the association between autism and vaccines, particularly MMR, is so obvious that attempts to discredit it reek of corporate interest in the billions of dollars they earn from parents vaccinating their children. This is Big Pharma at its worst.

    http://www.drwhitaker.com/autism-and-childhood-vaccines

    • Guy Chapman says:

      Yes, we know what you firmly believe. The problem is that your belief is out of line with reality. It will remain out of line with reality however often you restate it.

      Just sayin’

    • Ren says:

      Billions in vaccines?

      You’re joking, right?

      I think YOU are in line with Big Pharma. Your actions reek of someone who wants vaccine-preventable diseases to come back so that Big Pharma can make money from all the antibiotics, antivirals, and supportive therapies that would come with all those sick and dying children.

      Prove me wrong.

    • Chris says:

      Do tell us about the validity of a graph that shows 100% of boys becoming autistic, then everyone in a few years. Except, here is the funny thing, the girls don’t all become autistic until a few years after everyone!

      Just like the silly self-selected internet survey you touted early, Dr. Whitaker is using a particularly brain dead graph:
      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/19/battling-antivaccinationists-at-freedomfest-part-2-dr-whitaker-responds/

    • cristina maria kassama bag says:

      you are right, MMR vaccine may cause bowel inflammation, Dr Natasha Campbell McBride who I admire so much, describe in her book that this vaccine since contain 3 kind of virus , specially measles virus , can be too dangerous , if some of them have abnormal gut flora , she mentioned for this reason is better to delay or avoid vaccines until be sure that babies or kids have normal gut flora otherwise could cause so many damages for the health! I think also DTaP shots must be reviewed, my son lost speech just after this insane vaccine

      • Chris says:

        Isn’t she the one that does guilt dose on mothers who cannot breastfeed? She must come up lots in families who adopt babies.

        • cristina maria kassama bag says:

          just take a look GAPS book, by Dr Natasha Campbell McBride, she strongly support breastfeeding, since is the natural way to increase immune system for the babies , please do not mention about someone u really do not know about it!!

          • Guy Chapman says:

            Are you aware of the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority? The scientific debate is over, vaccines do not cause autism, they do save lives.

  18. Health freedom 2 says:

    EDIT: That’s now six comments in a row you’ve tried to post that are nothing but links to other sites. Spam comments or links will not be posted.
    – Seth

    • Health freedom 2 says:

      guess you are biased. The reason for the article? You do know that mercury is a known neuro-toxin? The lead scientist who did the study funded by the CDC on vaccines and the autism link disappeared with over 2 million and was indicted on 15 counts of fraud. The CDC FDA, AMA, and the government is funded by pharma. The outcome was already pre-determined, you see? Big corruption! We have been lied to. You have only to ask the top scientists who are not funded by pharma to find the truth. Start with Professor Boyd Haley, Dr Russell Blaylock, and Dr Julian Whitaker.

  19. Anna says:

    It’s called America and in everyone’s constitutional rights is freedom of speech. Not everyone is blind to the money hungry government and pharmaceutical companies. We are educated individuals who see past your unconcern for people and children’s health. Mercury in vaccines….really!! Mercury is the most poisonous metal on the planet that does not produce radiation. It’s called common sense and we have the right to express our opinion and the facts about anything we like.

    • Guy Chapman says:

      Do you know why the vaccine courts exist? It’s because the pharmaceutical companies make so little form vaccines that the flood of vexatious litigation was in danger of shutting down supply.

      Mercury has been used in dental amalgam for over a century with absolutely no scientifically provable detrimental effect. Equally, there is absolutely no scientifically provable detrimental effect from mercury in vaccines (not least because most no longer have any!).

      • Health freedom 2 says:

        mercury used in products is becomng antiquated and phased out due to current research. The US Mercury treaty has been in recent talks to reduce with an eventual phase out of mercury. The reason it is used in the US is because it is cost effective and technically considered legal. The US is about 25 years behind on this issue and many other issues in comparrison to other countries.

        • Guy Chapman says:

          You are missing the point. There is no credible evidence that ethyl mercury causes the effects that the vaccine hysterics claim, therefore the rate of adoption or withdrawal is a red herring.

        • Chris says:

          Please tell us which vaccines on the American pediatric schedule that is only available with thimerosal. Do not include influenza, because of the eight available flu vaccine four do not have thimerosal.

    • Ren says:

      What about cobalt? Do you think it’s poisonous? It’s used in nuclear reactors, so it must be really bad, right? Yet it is found in cobalamine, a B vitamin.

      I know. I know. You’re not a chemist, so how are you supposed to know that ethyl mercury is safer than elemental mercury just like cobalamine is safer than cobalt?

      You’re forgiven.

  20. WD says:

    “or, to put it in terms Schneider might be able to better understand: An unusually hot summer and a big blockbuster hit could both affect movie ticket sales.”

    Sorry, but I don’t think the phrase “blockbuster hit” will have any resonance with Mr. Schneider.

  21. JRH says:

    There are two divergent arguments, here. One thread consists of people who hold vaccinations and their hardworking creators in the highest esteem. The other thread is from people who have first-, second-, or third-hand knowledge that mercury is (and other toxins are) being introduced into vaccinations. Sadly, these are nearly unrelated. Is there anyone from the pro-vaccine side who has heard about the mercury (etc) and still feels a need to defend this (ovbiously tainted) process? I imagine Jonas Salk and others had humanity’s best interest in mind, but something has gone seriously wrong with the process. Anyone care to address this?

    • Guy Chapman says:

      Close. he two divergent streams are actually: those who follow the evidence, and those who are absolutely determined to find evidence against vaccines even where none exists.

      For example, they might claim that “mercury is (and other toxins are) being introduced into vaccinations” when in fact the reverse is true; the non-toxic form of mercury historically used as a vaccine preservative is actually being removed, largely in response to baseless propaganda and fearmongering.

    • Guy Chapman says:

      Addendum: also, science does not work through reverence. Einstein proved Newton wrong on relativity, Pauli proved Einstein wrong on determinism. Contrast this with the Messianic fervour with which anti vaccinationists follow Andrew Wakefield.

      Science celebrates solid work and solid results, like the eradication of smallpox, but no amount of great work makes any scientist immune from criticism. Google Linus Pauling for an example.

  22. C.S. says:

    My daughter was injured by 3 shots at 14 mths old. She literally fell apart neurologically and physically; pupils of her eyes dialating off and on, petit-mal seizures, hitting the top of her head over and over again, screaming out periodically, lost all speech within a week posturing over furniture after eating, after about two weeks had high-pitched screaming and severe arching of her back in her crib one night (as if trying to do a back-flip on her side)! She developed ‘normally’ per her pediatrician before those shots and mths after those shots was diagnosed with static encephalopathy with features consistant of autism. I will never forgive the mainstream medical institutions for the pain, suffering of my child and the emotional, physical and financial devistation it has caused all of us over the years and to this day! My child lost all of her young childlife and what we all dream of celebrating as they grow, birthdays, holidays, the first day of school, etc.! All of that was robbed of her and us! She could not even sleep thru one night in peace the first couple of yrs after those shots (mmr, varicella, polio)! She still suffers to the day and so does her family!

    • Guy Chapman says:

      And where is the evidence that the link was causal again? I seem to recall reading of parents in one case whose children, asserted to have shown onset immediately following vaccination, turned out on investigation to have onset anywhere between three months before and twelve months afterwards.

      I’m not disputing that it could have happened (there are, very rarely, reactions to vaccines in the form of petit mal seizure) but credible evidence linking vaccines to autism is absent.

    • C.S. says:

      Her reaction of symptoms from thos 3 shots started in the car on the way home from the pediatrician’s office, around 20 minutes or so. Oh and thanks for your callous disregard!

      • Chris says:

        I hope your claim to NVICP is going well. You should have good medical records to go on from the trip to the emergency room.

        I know seizures are scary. And it is very odd to have large fireman and EMT coming into our very tiny house to deal with our very small toddler. The folks at the hospital were very helpful.

        And later the neurologist told us the disease he had can cause seizures. Unfortunately he got the disease that caused the seizures and permanently disabled him a few years before there was a vaccine. And since it was caused by a disease we could not file a VAERS report or a NVICP claim.

        Since my son was injured by an actual disease, can you tell me if the risk of seizures is higher with the vaccines or with the diseases? I would really like the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed paper showing that a vaccine on the present pediatric schedule causes seizures more than the actual disease. Something like this:

        Vaccine. 2012 Jan 5;30(2):247-53.
        Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

        Pediatrics Vol. 126 No. 2 August 1, 2010 (doi: 10.1542/peds.2009-1496)
        Lack of Association Between Acellular Pertussis Vaccine and Seizures in Early Childhood

      • Guy Chapman says:

        No callous disregard, merely skepticism, sorry.

        As I say, seizures is quite plausible. Autism not so much. Unfortunately there are small numbers of adverse reactions; calling for wholesale bans on the basis of these is like calling for a ban on motor vehicles because one child is run down. It is heartbreaking for the family involved, and I am very glad it’s not me, but the danger from vaccine preventable disease is much greater.

        And I am sorry that sound callous too.

  23. JRH says:

    Guy Chapman-
    You quibble with words (‘is being introduced’). You admit the presence of mercury in vaccinations. You propose a highly unlikely non-toxic form of mercury without so much as a brand name (Baby-Safe Mercury!) and little scientific detail. And you imply that I am partisan to baseless propaganda and fearmongering.

    The question I had concerned mercury in vaccinations. I am told (1) the vaccination mercury was used as a preservative (2) it was non-toxic and (3) it is being removed.

    Can anyone address these points rationally? I have my own position on each of them, but my position is based on distant observation. That is why I ask the questions.

    • Guy Chapman says:

      You say mercury is being introduced, when actually it is being phased out. That is not a quibble. You have also failed to show any credible evidence of harm due to ethyl mercury in vaccines (and indeed have repeatedly shown a complete disregard for the difference between ethyl and elemental mercury).

      So yes, ethyl mercury was (and to a lesser extent still is) used as a preservative, it is non-toxic as far as the available evidence shows, and it is being removed largely in response to public demand following a lengthy campaign of wilful misinformation by anti vaccination activists.

      In fact, all these points have already been made. You just don’t like the answers. Sorry about that, the problem is your end.

    • Chris says:

      You say mercury is being introduced, when actually it is being phased out. That is not a quibble.

      It has been gone from pediatric vaccines for at least ten years. Show me one recommended pediatric vaccine on this list that does not have a thimerosal free version.

      Also note that even SafeMinds had trouble getting a DTaP with thimerosal over ten years ago:

      # Subject: Thimerosal DTaP Needed
      # From: Sally Bernard
      # Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:01:50 -0400
      # Yahoo! Message Number: 27456
      http://onibasu.com/archives/am/27456.html

      Hi all:

      A group of university-based researchers needs several vials of the older DTaP vaccine formulations which contained thimerosal for a legitimate research study. If anyone knows an MD who might have some of these vaccines or knows where to get them, please email me privately.

      Thank you.

      Sallie Bernard
      Executive Director
      Safe Minds

  24. Health freedom 2 says:

    Measles outbreaks have occurred in schools with vaccination rates over 98 % in all parts of the U.S. including areas that had reported no cases of measles for years. As measles immunization rates rise to high levels measles becomes a disease seen only in vaccinated persons. An outbreak of measles occurred in a school where 100 % of the children had been vaccinated. Measles mortality rates had declined by 97 % in England before measles vaccination was instituted.

    http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james.htm

    • Ren says:

      You just don’t give up, do you. Let’s do a mental exercise…

      The MMR vaccine is about 95% effective. If that school had 100% of children vaccinated, which I doubt, then it stands to reason that 5% of them would not be immune. (Note how you don’t mention the name of the school, Ms. Randal.) By your logic, you’d rather lower that vaccination rate, making even more children susceptible to measles.

      Shame on you!

      But let’s do another mental exercise. Let’s say that you have a school with 500 children. 98% of them are vaccinated. This means that 490 have received the vaccine but only 466 of them are immune (at 95% effectiveness). This means that 34 are not immune. Ten of those 34 are not vaccinated.

      Now, let’s say that there is an outbreak among those 34 kids, meaning that there are 24 with measles who were vaccinated and 10 with measles who were not. Sounds like the vaccine doesn’t work when you look at it that way, doesn’t it, Ms. Randal. May I call you Doreen?

      But here’s where you anti-vaccine people stop. If you reasoned it further, vaccinated kids have only a 24 in 490, or 5%, chance of being part of the outbreak. On the other hand, unvaccinated kids have a 10 in 1o, or 100% chance of being part of the outbreak. Twenty times higher.

      I don’t know about you, but I’ll take the 5% chance of measles with 0% chance of autism any day over 100% chance of measles with 0% chance of autism.

      It’s called epidemiology, and I suggest you do “research” into it, being as how you’re a “researcher” and all. And, for God’s sake, stop linking to rabid anti-vaccine sites to support your assertions. We get it. You hate vaccines. But you need to find evidence in real science for any of us to listen to your arguments. Otherwise, you’re embarrassing yourself.

      Now, let’s say that there

    • Ren says:

      And one more thing… Mortality may have been down, but incidence was at an all time high. These are epidemiological terms, and I don’t expect you to understand them. But you really should if you expect to convince anyone who knows better.

  25. Seth Mnookin says:

    Hey, folks — I think everyone has had their say and at this point we run the risk of just shouting past each other, so I’m going to close comments on this post for the time being. I’ll revisit in a few days and see if it makes sense to open them back up. Thanks for being so passionate and taking the time to share your thoughts and concerns.
    – Seth

  26. JRH says:

    It seems like the non-toxic quality of ethyl mercury is probably just a lack of the tendency to remain in the body, creating a cumulative effect the way elemental mercury does. There seem to be two things balancing this ‘non-toxic’ quality: younger age (and smaller mass) of recipient and higher number of vaccinations. Both of these would put a higher percentage of non-toxic mercury in the human system. And if it’s really not so much non-toxic as it is ‘quickly flushed from the system’, then there would be a lot more mercury in a human system given these two factors. Might that cause issues?

    For the record, I am not a doctor, nor have I ever read a medical paper all the way through.
    -JRH

    • Guy Chapman says:

      Or – and I know this is a stretch – maybe the government, the doctors, the manufacturers and the independent scientists who have investigated it are /not lying/ and there is no significant effect from thimerosal.

      Maybe the errors are coming from the antivaxers, who always start from the vaccine and work backwards.

      Hell, maybe it’s a closet scheme to prevent the extinction of the polio virus and other disease organisms, that’s actually a lot more rational than most antivax arguments!

      • JRH says:

        Most of what I have read (and heard, firsthand) has been parents of children who had a sudden onset of extremely bizzare and harsh symptoms. They work back from that point. I’ve never been an “antivaxer,” not even now. My point here is to take what I see and hear and read and try to make sense of it. The argument that vaccines do much more good than harm is valid, until you add an organized attack on whomever has a valid gripe with your healthy, happy little status quo. If you are correct; if you do have science and logic on your side, there should be no need for abuse or derision.
        For instance, I thought it was odd that you, Guy, would call ethyl mercury “non-toxic”. So I did *a little* online research and did not find any source stating that ethyl mercury was non-toxic. I did find a source stating that ethyl mercury was easily flushed from the human system, unlike elemental mercury. That would explain why small amounts would be acceptable as a preservative in vaccinations. It would also explain why a person might conclude that ethyl mercury was not toxic. This is how I am working though this process. I asked you to comment on your original words “…it is non-toxic as far as the available evidence shows…” And you have not commented. Do you feel totally uninclined to help me work through this logically, simply because I seem to be opposing your side? I can understand if you have negative emotion about this. I have developed a great deal of negative emotion, myself, just in attempting to sort out the facts from the bullying in this thread alone. Can you, Guy Chapman, respond to the following direct question, without the need for an attack:

        Can you support that ethyl mercury is actually non-toxic, or does the available evidence that you cited merely state that it is easily flushed from the human system?

        • Chris says:

          My question is why you would care about an ingredient that has not been in pediatric vaccines for a decade.

          And please don’t tell me it is the influenza vaccines, when at least four do not have thimerosal (you should read that entire link).

          • JRH says:

            Chris, whenever you say “There is no x in y” (as in, There hasn’t been sugar in Coca Cola products for 20 years), in English-speaking America, it really only means one thing: Not one single y has x in it. Even though I can’t find a single Coca Cola product that doesn’t have a sugar-free version, I’d be an idiot to declare that Coca Cola products do not contain sugar.

            And yet that is the logical fallacy that you have employed again and again. …Like when you say “an ingredient that has not been in pediatric vaccines for a decade.” Any other intelligent English-speaking non-huckster in America would only use that absolute term to refer to actual absolutes. And yet you follow up your absolute declaration by declaring how relative your data is: “at least four do not have thimerosal”. That really does mean “all but at least four DO have thimerosal”.

            You say things like that, over and over. It’s almost all you say. “There haven’t been Nazis in Germany for fifty years. Every voting district has at least one non-Nazi on the ballot.” All you do when you make such statements is paint yourself as an idiot. Or sway opinions of people not sharp enough to see your cleverly crafted fallacious logic. Or troll.

            I’ve printed your page and I’ll read every word. I already see plenty of vaccines on the list that DO have thimerosal. Can’t wait to see if any of the thimerosal vaccines are pediatric.

          • Chris says:

            Actually if the sweetener in Coca-Cola is fructose, then there is sugar in it. There is a version called “Diet Coke” that contains no sugar, some have stevia. If I desired a Coke without sugar, I can buy one. And if I desired a pediatric vaccine without thimerosal, I can request that. So your statement makes no sense.

            The way they manage to get thimerosal free vaccines is instead of putting the vaccine in a rubber topped vial where a needle is inserted and then filled, they make single use needles. That way the thimerosal is not needed to protect from contamination. And it is more expensive.

            There is no real data that the thimerosal is a cause of autism, and all of the pediatric vaccines are available without thimerosal. And still autism goes up (a more logical explanation was published this week in Nature about age of fathers, you should read about it).

            So, there is no slight of hand renaming, or any other conspiracy theory. Though I see you are having trouble with basic arithmetic: there are four with thimerosal and four without (the ratio of each is half). Persevering on silly details like that means you really don’t care about the data.

            But then you decided to mention Nazis, essentially evoking Godwin’s Law. That is an automatic indication that you have no argument. So, really, why should we care about what you think?

  27. Trishinspace says:

    What a shame about Rob Schneider…I always thought he was so funny. He still is, but now it’s more in a sad way. I hope he realizes the damage that he could do by making public statements on this issue. I never thought anyone would listen to a dingbat like McCarthy, but look at the impact she’s had. Maybe it’s not such a bad thing that my immunized children aren’t attending public schools anymore.

    Thanks for your efforts, Seth :)

    P.S. Could you please fix a sentence in your article? “dreaming about ways to ‘main’ and kill”….thanks!

    Fixed — thanks, Trish!
    - Seth

  28. Chemist says:

    ethyl mercury (e.g. released from thimerosal)

    ethyl mercury is non-toxic ???

    You are idiots !

    • Chris says:

      At what dose? As a chemist this is something you should actually understand.

      And what vaccine in the present American pediatric schedule is only available with thimerosal? Do not mention influenza, since about half of the flu vaccines approved for children are thimerosal free. And don’t mention DTaP, because of the three available only one as a trace of thimerosal, the other are also thimerosal free.

  29. JRH says:

    Just making the point that you have a strong tendency to rely on logical fallacies, when arguing. Bringing up Godwin’s Law only clarifies that point. Sadly, the stakes in this thread require at least a good faith attempt to get it right. Getting the logic right is not a silly detail. Your inability to understand that, or care enough to think about it serves no one. Except Guy, who still has not responded.

    • Chris says:

      When you use logical fallacies, it will be noted. What I am asking is why you are persevering on a non-issue. Now if thimerosal has been such a big deal in vaccines why did Sallie Bernard have to ask for help to get DTaP vaccine with thimerosal over a decade ago? Here is a cut a paste from the Autism/Mercury Yahoo group, it includes the link so you can check it yourself:

      Subject: Thimerosal DTaP Needed
      From: Sally Bernard
      Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:01:50 -0400
      Yahoo! Message Number: 27456
      Onibasu Link: http://onibasu.com/archives/am/27456.html

      Hi all:

      A group of university-based researchers needs several vials of the older DTaP vaccine formulations which contained thimerosal for a legitimate research study. If anyone knows an MD who might have some of these vaccines or knows where to get them, please email me privately.

      Thank you.

      Sallie Bernard
      Executive Director
      Safe Minds

      • Witness says:

        Sallie Bernard asked for “the older DTaP vaccine formulations” that contained an undisclosed percentage (?%) of thimerosal. What was the percentage? How long before June 2001 had that percentage been phased out? A decade? Longer? You present this as evidence without answering any of those questions.
        Your link shows 5 pediatric vaccines that contain thimerosal. That page was updated 6/20/2012. Your earlier position”…an ingredient that has not been in pediatric vaccines for a decade” is simply false.

        • Chris says:

          Nice goal post move. Five out of a total of how many?

          Still every pediatric vaccine has a thimerosal free version available. Especially handy for those in California where it is legislated that only those be given to children and pregnant women.

          Thimerosal is an old non-issue. Time to move on.

          • JRH says:

            There’s an old joke that goes, “I don’t like one item on this menu” “Oh really, which one?” That’s funny because that phrase has a dual meaning. Likewise, when you say has not been a part of for a decade, you *usually* mean that it has been completely absent for a decade. NOT that it’s only in half, or a third, or even five out of the lot. I know you understand that concept. Nice work. Hope you’re well compensated. You can keep your goalposts. They’ll get much more exercise with you.

          • Chris says:

            One out of three DTaP vaccines has a trace of thimerosal.

            Four out of eight influenza vaccines have thimerosal.

            There are over twenty more without thimerosal, most of them for the last decade, and some of them never had them. And there really is no real research showing the amount used in vaccines in the 20th century caused problems.

            California is a state (without real evidence) that legislated that only vaccines without thimerosal be given to children years ago. It also has a very good reporting system of childhood disabilities. There has been no affect on autism.

            It is a non-issue, yet you keep persevering on it. Here is an idea: just use the two DTaP versions without thimerosal, and one of the four out of eight influenza vaccines without thimerosal. The rest you don’t have to worry about.

          • Chris says:

            Hope you’re well compensated.

            No. I am paid absolutely nothing to care for my disabled son. He had seizures from a now vaccine preventable disease, which added a neurological disorder his genetic heart disorder. This is why I had to quit work.

            I have never been paid a dime to take him to the neurologist, cardiologist, speech therapist, and now to post surgical cardiac rehab. Nor have I ever been paid a dime for the hours I have spent in IEP meetings, nor for the days being with him when he was in the hospital.

            Fortunately dear spouse has a good job with a company that designs and manufactures large commercial vehicles… with good health insurance. Though we did have to pay much of the speech/educational therapy ourselves.

            Next time try something more original than the old tired boring Pharma Shill Gambit. Try some real scientific data and evidence. And do try to read some history on the issue, starting with Mr. Mnookin’s book.

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