6 Big Questions on the DEA Ban of K2 Spice Synthetic Marijuana “Fake Pot” Compounds

The much-awaited DEA final rule on temporarily assigning five synthetic cannabimimetics to Schedule I of the US Controlled Substances Act was published in the Federal Register today.

From the DEA Public Affairs office press release:

MAR 01 – WASHINGTON, D.C. – The United States Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) today exercised its emergency scheduling authority to control five chemicals (JWH-018, JWH-073, JWH-200, CP-47,497, and cannabicyclohexanol) used to make so-called “fake pot” products. Except as authorized by law, this action makes possessing and selling these chemicals or the products that contain them illegal in the United States. This emergency action was necessary to prevent an imminent threat to public health and safety. The temporary scheduling action will remain in effect for at least one year while the DEA and the United States Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) further study whether these chemicals should be permanently controlled.

The DEA cites the public health risks of these compounds as supported by reports from poison control centers around the US over the last year or so. As a result, individual states and municipalities have been passing legislation outlawing many of these compounds locally and, understandably, the military being particularly aggressive in acting on the use of these products by servicemen and women. Daniel de Vise at The Washington Post had a very nice article yesterday detailing the offenses among midshipmen at the US Naval Academy. In North Carolina, we’ve had an exhaustive piece of legislation proposed in the state legislature with enough latitude that it essentially bans hundreds if not thousands of compounds, the majority of which have yet to even be synthesized.

Here are a few questions that come to mind with the sudden announcement of the DEA final rule:

1. Will local law enforcement authorities be greeting retailers this morning?

K2 Spice and other herbal incense products are sold all across my town – from gas stations and convenience stores to head shops and adult novelty stores. Upon opening their doors this morning, my local merchants are suddenly felons. The ruling gives no advice to retailers as to how they should properly dispose of this contraband. I certainly don’t think any of them will be calling their local DEA office for advice.

2. How does law enforcement know if a product is legal or not?

K2 and other Spice products are sold in sealed Mylar bags that lack any sort of certificate of analysis. Retailers have been preparing for this ban since the 24th November 2010 DEA announcement of intent to issue this temporary order by devising what they perceive as legal alternatives. Commenters to this blog have let us know that other JWH compounds not listed by the DEA, such as JWH-250, are now being put into Spice products to proactively circumvent the pending ban. I doubt seriously that law enforcement authorities will be traveling around with mobile analytical chemistry labs to determine if a retailer is carrying legal or illegal products. It seems to me that the default action will be to prosecute retailers who are selling any herbal incense in a Mylar bag.

3. Do state or federal authorities have adequate analytical chemistry resources to properly prosecute newly-illegal offenses?

So, say then that you are a retailer who is arrested today. Will state or federal crime investigation laboratories have the analytical and personnel resources to analyze the chemical content of the products you are selling?

4. Will reporters be arrested, too?

Over the last year, I’ve seen scads of footage of local TV reporters buying K2 Spice products to show on newscasts and in reports. If they still have any of this laying around their cubicles, what should they do?

5. What about the Controlled Substances Analog Act? Who decides what’s an analog?

As I wrote at my Chemical & Engineering News blog at CENtral Science, the DEA has the authority to prosecute cases involving the possession and/or sale of chemical or pharmacological analogs to controlled substances. By this definition, many chemicals in “legal” spice alternatives might still be deemed illegal and constitute a criminal offense. Who decides?

My take is that the Analog Act has always been amorphous enough to simply put fear and uncertainty into the hearts of any thinking of using or selling a compound that even looks like a Schedule I substance.

6. Isn’t this a nanny-state assault on small businesses?

Much hullaballoo has begun in the legal highs retail community by organizations such as The Retail Compliance Assocation (RCA) and a group of Minnesota retailers represented by Minneapolis attorney, Marc Kurzman. These groups have contended that the DEA ban violates the Regulatory Flexibility Act (my discussion here). In essence, the retailers groups argue that this new law adversely impacts the economic viability of small businesses.

From a political standpoint, I’m somewhat amused by what I perceive as hypocrisy, at the state level at least. State legislators who have put forth bills banning these substances are largely Republican. Yet this political faction is all for minimizing government intrusion into our lives.

I know that some of the retailer organizations are planning legal battles but I’m not convinced of their likelihood of success. While state laws might be good targets for legal challenge, federal law is a completely different story. I’m not a lawyer but history tells me that once the DEA is involved, you’re better off just going about some other sort of business.

I’ll continue to be with you as this fascinating story of chemistry, pharmacology, law, and economics continues to unfold.

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113 Responses to 6 Big Questions on the DEA Ban of K2 Spice Synthetic Marijuana “Fake Pot” Compounds

  1. Pingback: Get Rid of Your Fake Pot, It’s Now Illegal – Washington City Paper (blog) | My Blog

  2. Establishing that these various compounds are harmful by counting the calls made to poison control centers is shoddy science. The poison control centers tabulate calls from various persons who are reporting on behalf of patients who say that they are having scary symptoms due to something. Those patients could say they are having those scary symptoms from an illegal drug or a still legal drug. Hmmm. Of course, they may think the symptoms are from some “Spice” type synthetic cannabinoid, but there is no reason the sellers are as reliable as a drug company in their processing. What if the dangers are only from one of these compounds? No one knows.
    This is law making based upon fear and lack of knowledge. And these are very harsh laws with very severe penalties being created on flimsy evidentiary records of their necessity.

  3. David Kroll says:

    Eric, it’s an honor to have you come and comment here. I agree completely that poison control center reports alone are not indicators of public health risks. Indeed, I look at them more as hypothesis generators, just as medical case reports serve. Once more details are available, true assessment of causation is possible. For example, the death of a mother in Indiana last year that was attributed to Spice even before tox reports came in later ended up being due to a multitude of other substances. My hope is that this study period provides the agency with the personnel and financial resources to truly investigate the dangers of these compounds and/or their synthetic side products as encountered in commerce.

  4. Kevin Parker says:

    Am suspecting most of the calls are a result of high doses of these cannabinoids. Cannabis can cause panic attacks. I know this from personal experience. It also reminded me of a story about an officer from Dearborn MI who dialed 911 after he and his wife decided to make some brownies with some confiscated pot. (Listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHTzpXyXO-4) I think this type of massive overdose usu. only occurs with edibles with real cannabis. Because of the potency of the synthetics it is possible to get a very strong dose by smoking before the effects are felt. I have read of the exact same phrase being said by the people who went to the ER as the cop in the 911 call “I think I’m dead”. Interesting that its not – I’m going to die or I think I’m dieing. This is obviously frightening but I suspect it is not harmful whether from a natural or synthetic cannabinoid.

  5. Jeremy Wolff says:

    The ironic bottom line of the chaos of attempting to ban certain of the research chemicals–is the failure of the current banning, unregulating, and mis-scheduling of and not regulating marijuana/cannabis. The JWHs etc should not be marketed to young people any more than FourLoko, should not be for sale everywhere. They are strong and they do have risks, largely cuz no one knows what’s in them–they are untested white powders–and that will get worse with this semi-ban. If pot were legally controlled there would be no demand for these; as it is, it spins out of control in a far more dangerous way, creating a new market possibly for far-eastern and eastern european mobs. (to say nothing of the money that could be made from taxing vs the money lost to legal morass.)

  6. Jeremy Wolff says:

    Excuse my proofreading. The first line again:

    The ironic bottom line of the chaos of attempting to ban certain of the research chemicals is that it points up the failings of the current banning, non-regulation, and mis-scheduling of Cannabis.

  7. Pingback: Spice / K2 Is Now Illegal | Home Health Blog

  8. Pingback: Spice sellers: Bring out your dead | Take As Directed

  9. The brief statement about the fight against the DEA ban does not do that fight justice. The fight is not just the two acts, Regulatory Flexibility and Congressional Review, but the 1st, 4th and 14th amendments, which are clearly covered in the concerns stated here.

    1st amendment, retailers should be allowed to say anything they like about products they sell, consumers should not have to play a game of charades to get what they want

    4th amendment, law enforcement should have to provide probable cause BEFORE entering a retailers business and confiscating products, they need to have the proof before they arrive, a warrant in hand, or cash to pay fair compensation.

    14th Amendment, -DUE PROCESS Do we really want law enforcement to be allowed to create felony class laws that they then get to go out and enforce?

    Then there are many scientific arguments and legal contradictions in the Ban. It is sloppy, and we are mounting a significant challenge. This case is a new line in the sand and the attempt to ban cannabinoids is very difficult because as science is discovering, they are in almost everything, including 38 that humans make inside their own bodies, coffee, and chocolate…..it is a new fight, not at all like MJ or bath salts.

    Thanks for keeping up with the action!!!

    Dan Francis
    Executive Director
    The Retail Compliance Association

  10. DrugMonkey says:

    First Amend? So we should go back to patent medicine era of complete lack of regulation and oversight eh? Let the buyer beware?

  11. wayne brock says:

    for years people have been dying from otc products like acetaminophen and alcohol but we havent banned them.but if they did our nc legislatures would be drug dealers. so let the poisened livers and carnage on our roads continue and lets keep pointing fingers at the crums while ignoring the cake.

  12. Michelle Trinst says:

    Thank god it’s banned. Especially when your teenage son & his buddies could buy it from the corner store & get high, all with no legal repercussions. How do you think a mother feels knowing her son is doing this? And as far as I know there’s no ‘home’ test yet to prove the kid is smoking it to ground him etc! Thank god that stupid crap is banned. And I honestly hope any store still selling it gets whatever the maximum punishment may be.

  13. Ckfucgov;t says:

    First, these chemicals/cannabinoids are only being banned because, of fear, the same reason why marijuana was scheduled. The “herbal incense” is not a problem, it is the older generations that have a problem with the use of “drugs”, look at the facts. Do not rely in media, Spice, and k2 where not causing problems, it is old people, quit trying to control other people.

    The bath salts, hell, most of you think people are getting “high” while putting it in your bath tub, look at the black market, cocaine, meth, heroin, hell any other drug you can think of, most places that sell these incense and salts require an id, where as your children can go and buy crack, tweak, or down anytime, anywhere, whenever they feel like it. Don’t be fooled by the media, gov’t and other ignorant controlling robots. Most of the people who sell or use these products do not go and stab/rob/slice up the public, the concern is that , the US is not getting there total cut from a drug. The gov’t gets its cut from every drug used in this cuntry, EVERY drug, be it distributing, supporting or arresting. The drug trade, makes its mark, consider the idea of a controlled Product, with some law, not outright ban, who are you to tell others what they can or can not put it to their, their own bodies. Shame on you old folk who try to play controller of everything.

    The use of alcohol, is much more of a risk, to society than any of these legal products. To the lady Miche** maybe you should educate your son, and not be lazy and rely upon government laws to teach your children.

  14. Michelle Trinst says:

    To the above poster, I have educated my son. I’ve talked to him til I’m blue in the face. I’ve had him watch videos, I’ve printed things off the internet. Not to mention he’s seen 1st hand an uncle who lost everything to a meth addiction. Seen the meth scabs & scars on his uncles face. Obviously you don’t have a teenager you are trying to keep safe & drug free. You have no idea what it’s like. My job is to keep his brain intact & growing healthily & normally & keep him drug free until he’s an adult. I pray to god you never have a child of your own, going through these hellish experiences. My heart cries & breaks in half knowing he & his buddies don’t give a rats ass what the hell it is, they just know they get a buzz ‘legally’. I pray you never experience the hell of it all. Because let me tell you, it is living hell.

  15. wayne brock says:

    You have to ask yourself what is so wrong with this childs life that he feels the need to change the way he feels.Experimentation is normal,however long term use may be a sign of different problems.

  16. Michelle Trinst says:

    Very true Wayne.
    Back to the original postings, I’m extremely happy it’s been banned. It makes it that much more difficult for our children to get their hands on these things.
    Our kid’s brains & bodies are still growing & developing. You can educate them til you’re blue in the face, you can get them involved in whatever sport you want. As you stated, they’re still going to experiment. Would anyone here like to volunteer their son to experiment on just one time? Now it might be the one time things go horribly wrong & the K2 has an adverse reaction. Anyone? Ah, come on, it’s legal! (Or was) Kids experiment! Come on! Volunteer your kid just one time! Any takers? Nah, didn’t think so.

  17. Kevin Parker says:

    Your kids are being experimented on. The amount of novel chemicals produced by industry and that are in the environment is scary. The standard for industry has always been that a harm must be proven. Look into the story of Phthalates for example. Or look into the practice of hydrolic fracking which is poisoning water and air with almost no regulation. Or consider that most of the fish in the Potomac River are intersexed, they have both male and female sex organs posb. to to endocrine disruptors . There is a new movement towards green chemistry and considering what happens to chemical when they are finished being used but this is very new. There was a piece on NPR on this recently.

    On another note banning something does not necessarily mean that it will be less easy to access. Perhaps for awhile until the market adjusts but when I was in high school in the late 80s and early 90s it was always easier to get pot than it was to get alcohol.

  18. Mike says:

    I am torn between both sides here. It hurt me to hear a mom’s perspective because I can imagine my mom feeling exactly the same. In my opinion, there are only two ways to deal with these drugs as effectively as possible. 1. ban or control all synthetic compounds that react with the same receptors as THC(any compound w/ similar results as JWH-018 which is what K2/Spice used). 2. Make pot legal while being age restricted and heavily taxed. The DEA should either be all in or all out, but who knows, maybe they have plans on hammering down on all of these K2 alternatives. I know that there are online vendors selling these new pure compounds as I speak (JWH-250/210) so we can assume that k2 retailers are replacing the old product w/ or w/o a name change. I’ve just ordered a brand new batch of K2 from a online vendor whose site says “no DEA banned substances,” meaning non of the 5 newly banned compounds are in the incense. Looks like I’ll have to find out myself whether or not the newer alternative compounds are in the new K2.

  19. Mercedes says:

    I have a teenage son who got hooked on K2 and other synthetic pot products. He was a promising high school athlete and was projected to go pro and was offered scholarships to many universities. Of course, his buddies knew about this way to get high without it showing up on a drug test. His impulsive teenage brain, his desire to be cool despite what we had taught him about drugs, or the stress of future and everything as a senior may all have contributed to him becoming addicted.
    I saw him deteriorate over the course of only 4 months of using synthetic pot but I didn’t know what he was doing. He went from 200 pounds (at 6’1″) of pure muscle, down to 165. It was a few more months before his eyes were sunken and cheek bones gaunt. He could not quit K2 because of night terrors according to him and the horrible stomach pain that happened if he didn’t smoke it.
    He cried and broke down because he had allowed this drug to ruin him.
    He injured himself which was bound to happen with the poor shape he was in. He was not able to play his sport in college due to injury. He still had the scholarship but he was smoking so much spice and then added Robbo trippin to it that he was circling the drain. He hid much of this from us, being away at college, but eventually he called and begged us to save him, and said that he knew he was going to die. I got a hold of his phone and on it was a photo he had taken of himself while trippin and he looked so ruined and sad. I came to help him. I witnessed him tripping out and he just about died right in front of me. I saw him seize, foam at the mouth, eyes roll back, and posture on the bed while his heart about pounded out of his chest. Do you have any idea what it is like to watch this happen to a beautiful young human being? Do you know what it’s like when your own child, that is young and gullible, has fallen into a carefully set trap? Do you know the despair of seeing what was lost because of this foolishness?
    He was lied to when he bought into the story that it was harmless.
    He has now, after much time, been able to overcome. He’s back on track.
    But he’s one of the lucky ones.
    One of our friends died a few months ago from the “bath salts”.
    I realize that you will trash me for telling the truth. You have no idea the many tears and the severe pain that this has caused me and my family.
    While the sellers take advantage and make money off of these gullible teenage souls, it’s us, the families that are traumatized. We are the ones that are affected financially. I won’t go into all of the costs, but they were substantial.
    The hospital bills will not be paid or ever seen by the merchants that sell the stuff.
    Why shouldn’t they be responsible for the costs?
    If it were any other product, they could be sued for damages.
    My son almost died. He really was that far gone. I know you don’t care, but to you, he’s not anything.
    How are these dealers od K2 ANY different than ANY street drug dealer?
    There’s absolutely no care for others and their honest well being.
    They’d like the government off their backs too ya know and I’d be okay with that for all of them if they agreed that they would not go to the ER’s, give up their children so they don’t ruin them, and they won’t go on Federal Assistance after they have exercised their freedom to use drugs and fry their brains.
    The children are the ones who are hurt.

  20. Dan says:

    Prohibition is not effective, attitudes like this only make the problem worse because it allows for the compounds to remain in the market and with a ban, the government has agreed to not regulate or tax it, or keep a grip on it in any way…they tossed in the white flag and said go on, do as you have been doing. The bans are an act of futility.

  21. Dan says:

    You teenage son did not get hooked on K2, this is the type of information that pollutes this issue. That is an impossible statement to make, then your physical description is that of speed, not a cannabinoid, and what did his friend die of?

    I will educate you for a minute. K2 could be one of thousands of mixtures of plants and cannabinoids, none of which have the same “effect” as the others, all of which have different milligrams to grams ratios of compound to plant materials, all the plant materials too have psychoactive effects. K2 as we have seen it has been in thousands of different forms, and the original manufacturer has been out of business since 2010, so it was likely a counterfeit product.
    You post lacks some critical evidence, such as toxicology tests, there are indeed urine tests available now to test for many of the JWH compounds, corroboration of any type, people trying to hide illegal drug use often blame the incense products, especially teenagers.
    You see your are ignorant to the issues here, your son almost died because he has a disease of addiction, not because of the drug he took. He made bad decisions, not as a result of the drug, and he lied to you about it, because K2 does not produce the scenario you described, or after interviewing thousands of users, physicians, law enforcement and chemists…you are the first to claim these symptoms in association with an incense product. Not the addiction symptoms, the physical description.
    The Bath Salts ARE BAD PRODUCTS, no one should sell or consume them, including your son. The incense products are not in any way as bad as the bath salts, they are safer than artificial food color, peanuts, and walking down the sidewalk….UNLESS you are prone to addiction, then anything is potentially dangerous to that person.
    You will be happy to know that The RCA proposed regulations remove the products from gas stations and local stores, adds a 21 and up to purchase, and indeed collects a tax to pay for people like your son that need medical services because the disease of addiction has reared its nasty head in his life, so you are wrong on your accusations, your assumptions, and your facts…Indeed if you know the compound that caused your sons condition, it should be stated here for sure to help others. It is the compound that is of concern, not the product, if one is causing problems, The RCA will have it pulled from the market.

  22. Marc0475 says:

    Hi, to say that someone cannot get addicted to “Spice” is not true. I work in the corrections field and see some of the guys who smoke “spice”. They get high and once they are finished, they are looking for the next fix. Yes, spice is a very addicting thing. I see it first hand on a daily basis.

  23. Dan says:

    I agree with this, the original compounds showed very little addiction potential, since the bans, new compounds that do have a more significant addiction profile entered the market. As the even more recent laws have passed in many states, you can expect a new generation, class, or design of a compound to circumvent the new laws…it is crazy to believe that this stuff should be banned, just insane. Talk about repeating the same mistake and expecting different results…..
    The bans have created a significant danger to people, and guaranteed the inconsistency of the product, they are stupid.
    The bans have also outlawed echinacea, tylenol, and caffiene, all synthetic CB1 stimulants…they did not think of that I guess.

  24. Loving mother says:

    You are so right! We knew there was something not right as we watched my son deteriorate. When we found the vials it looked similar to pot but it had no Oder and was very fine. Not knowing what it was I tried the smallest amount and tripped horrible. The saddest part of it all is we held an intervention and being he is 22 and told a good story they said the had no reason to keep him for drug rehab. Our promising son is slipping away. Please anyone,I desperately need your help!a loving mother

  25. Dan says:

    Just ask a car saklesmen if he feels thretened by lying. It goes beyong the 1st really. It involves these substabces as unwritten acceptions to the Universal Commercial Code which indeed says one cannot verbally warranty anything that is sold, if is not in writing, then it has no warranty.

    Spice products are gaining this status as well with the addition of tracking systems and lot/batch systems to identify which product causes issues, and where it is distributed and by who.

  26. Dan says:

    So true!!!

  27. Retards says:

    Mercedes and other parents on here are uneducated fools. Your son was absolutely not seizing and foaming at the mouth from a synthetic cannabanoid because it mimics THC and how many people overdose on weed? 0! You may think you are but it’s just a panic attack. Unlike every other drug including alcohol you can not die from ingesting to much weed. The only way your son could have overdosed is by obtaining the pure form of the substance and infesting too much. Guess what? He could have done that with anything. I could tell someone heroine is harmless, but does that make it true? It gets you high! Do you think your son really thought it was harmless? Even at gas stations you must be 18 to purchase incense so someone was buying it for him. If someone bought him alcohol and he got alcohol poisoning would you blame the alcohol being legal. Wake up you old idiots!!! The government lied to your parents with false studies to scare you. All drugs have been made illegal based on racism and your parents played right into it. Opiates=Asians marijuana=mexicans cocaine=blacks….read your history. Illegal drugs=drug related crime….the only reason your teen smokes incense is because weed is illegal and shows up in a test. Whether it was robitissun, incense, or heroin he would have experimented regardless! Try looking at stats on lower addiction rates between teens in Amsterdam. Teens do drugs because they are illegal it’s a part of teenage rebellion.

  28. Kim says:

    You are a GREAT MOM and I am saying a prayer for you right now.

  29. JonnyB says:

    Yes, spice (or whatever it was) is dangerous. I guess nobody really knows whats in it, except for the maker. I guess I can have it lab tested for about $600. My gf had a seizure after only 3 hits. She almost died. I had to call the ambulance since I was zonked from only ONE hit. We are both experienced pot smokers. Guess its back to booze, like its better. Ugh. I say legalize weed but ban fake weed. And I am not one to like or trust the government, but we need to save lives here.

  30. Jessie says:

    What is funny is that the professor who “discovered” the first of these cannabinoids has said that people who smoke it are idiots, and that it is like LSD. Anyone who thinks it isn’t addictive isn’t being true to themselves. We have had at least 7 overdoses in the last couple of months from “spice”.

  31. great points altogether, you just won a new reader. What might you suggest in regards to your submit that you made a few days ago? Any sure?

  32. Pingback: Jurors convict K2/Spice Synthetic Cannabis Seller Under Analog Provision | DrugMonkey

  33. The Truth says:

    You can’t be serious. The living hell of raising a son interested in altered states? Some people enjoy marijuana, some people get a lot out of it. Me personally, I think the only reason I’m alive is because of it. I went through anti-depressants and found that, while some provided some improvement to my life they all came with consequences that were hard to deal with and ultimately none of them fixed any of my issues to my satisfaction. I took to self-medicating with marijuana. As an individual who first began hurting themselves at the age of 8, being able to say today that I haven’t cut myself in three years means a lot. I’m 25. I was 22 the last time I cut, I have some serious issues – I’m aware of this. I’ve been smoking every day for the past three years that I haven’t cut, that’s a big deal to me and it’s something traditional medication just hasn’t been able to do for me.

    I’m not going to tell you to talk to your son about drugs, or educate your son – he doesn’t need it. I’m sure he knows a lot more about marijuana than you ever will – the Internet will teach you anything. What I suggest you do is listen to your son. Try to understand what he enjoys about marijuana, what he gets out of it. Maybe you can find an alternative solution that you’re comfortable with that meets his needs. Better yet (in my opinion, at least), maybe learning about your son’s interest in the plant’s effects will bring some comfort to you. Talking to your kids isn’t about talking until you’re blue in the face, making them watch videos and printing things off the Internet. The most important part of talking to troubled kids is listening to them.

  34. The Truth says:

    I’d like to retract my previous comment to you. You’re an idiot. I feel awful for your son. Who brought volunteering kids for experiments involving K2 into the mix? I can tell just from reading your comments that your son’s number one reason for experimenting with drugs is probably because you’ve crammed the anti-drug thing down his throat his entire life. His uncle had a rough time with meth, you say? How often did that come up throughout his childhood? I’m betting a lot.

    I suggested that you listen to your son and the reasons behind his drug use to come to some understanding, but I’m realizing now that it wouldn’t do any good. I doubt you’re capable of listening to your son in the way I suggested.

  35. The Truth says:

    Like LSD, eh? I’d love it if you could show me where exactly Dr. John W. Huffman made the claim that the synthetic cannabinoids he synthesized are like LSD. Having tried many of them I’d have to say that drawing the comparison to LSD is, well, insane.

  36. The Truth says:

    Found that quote where he compares it to LSD. Re-read that, I think you failed to grasp the concept he was expressing. When asked whether or not the synthetic cannabinoids would provide any medicinal value he said, “No. It’s like LSD, the only thing it is good for is getting you high.” Don’t see the idiots part, and you really pulled the LSD comment out of context. He wasn’t suggesting that spice is in any way similar to LSD, he was saying that it serves the same purpose. To make my own comparison, it’s like he said that Mt. Dew is like water, in that you can drink it – not that they’re similar in any other way.

  37. Dorothy Favor says:

    After seeing people buy it instead of something for their baby, that’s all I need 2C!

  38. justin sickmore says:

    It does not matter if the substance is banned. The producers can merely switch the compounds in the substance, which in turn would make it legal to what the DEA has banned. There are hundreds of different JWH compounds, each of which we have no idea how it affects the body.

  39. George the Drug Cartel Leader says:

    To all the concerned parents: Its so hilarious that you share the same position on drug prohibition as the drug cartels. Keep it illegal to keep it profitable. That is so funny. God I love it. Paraonid Parents doing the work of drug cartels. If only these moron parents could find a way to criminalize tobacco, wow that would really help the drug cartels out. Imagine the profits. Keep it up parents.

  40. john says:

    After 8 months I can still walk up to any gas station and by those spices its not illegal

  41. EnjoyLIFE8 says:

    To Mr. Ckfucgov;t , Dan and George ” the cartel leader” whatever idiots.
    If you morons don’t have kids or don’t care about your lives then good for you and your death wish but as for me, my promise will be I will always fight these completely unnecessary shit that people put in their bodies in order to be happy cause they are so pathetic and can’t find other ways to find fun in life. LIFE is too short and there is people like yourselves that are put in this world to ruin it.
    Mr. Ckfucgov;t, you think you know so much? are you a scientist? here is some info for the ignorant : http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/06/navy-marine-spice-mental-effects-060611w/
    Or this one… http://www.standard.net/topics/drugs/2011/04/06/spice-other-look-alike-drugs-cause-nine-deaths-us

    and I’ll see you in a hospital near you:)

  42. AndrewS says:

    It’s too bad your kid has such worthless parents that he needs the government to protect him from bad decisions. I take care of my kids myself and that includes honest talk about drugs, addiction and consequences of the decisions they will make. Go and watch Reefer Madness with your little moron and leave the rest of us alone.

  43. Dan says:

    Now there is an intelligent response, based on facts….hey there Hitler, go find another place you can rule…

    Take your oxycotin and shut up, pop a xanax too and eat a twinkie after your done with your triple burger and shots of liquor.

    You need an education……

  44. The Truth says:

    Exciting links! Full of opinion and rash conclusions. Obviously that young man’s suicide was the result of K2. Obviously. Look around. Take a good hard look around. We’re in a collapsing society, not lost, but certainly in a dangerous place. It truly doesn’t take depression or K2 to lead someone to suicide. Usually the things that cause a suicide are things people keep to themselves – that keeping it to themselves is usually what brings them to that end. I’m going to be talking big picture here for a moment. At the society level we’re repeatedly making bad decisions. I wouldn’t blame it on republicans, or democrats. There are many issues where both republicans and democrats provide a solution that could solve a problem, but instead things are only made worse by deliberation, indecision and self-serving political motivations. America is run by politicians, and possibly to a greater extent corporations. Both of these systems are broken. Corporate ideology is broken. In business there’s been this gradual shift towards saving money, as opposed to making it. It’s dangerous. A corporation lays off their employees to save money, to stay profitable. Outsourcing work, overseas factories, etc. Sales drop. Why? Because all the companies are doing it. Your customers don’t have jobs, don’t have money. You have to spend money to make money and corporate America has forgotten this. Living in this society is reason enough to drive someone to suicide – no history of depression doesn’t make K2 the culprit. You are. I am. This place is. You can blame a suicide on a chemical all you want, but a chemical never, ever erases a human being and their free will. K2 didn’t grab a gun and put it in his mouth and pull the trigger. Greedy fucks who’ve lost all reverence for true journalism decided their story would make more money if it weren’t about a suicide but about a killer, albeit essentially harmless drug. You bought in to it.

    Prohibition is a mistake. You can call drugs unnecessary, but that’s your opinion. You could make an argument, sure, but if you’ve ever tried you’d realize you’re wrong. Humanity has never seen a society without vice. Here’s why. Vice (any vice – gambling, adrenaline, drugs, pussy) is part of humanity. We’d have more luck replacing all of humanity’s skin with advanced rubber polymers than replacing vice. Authority trying to prevent human beings from being who they are is wrong and dangerous. The government shouldn’t protect your children from drugs. You should. Prohibition keeps drugs illegal. That’s all. Keeps the profit in the hands of criminals and adds a very expensive burden to tax-payers. Children, granted, usually not white children, but children none the less end up involved in drug trafficking because of prohibition. Children end up getting killed over drugs because of prohibition. I’d rather your teenager kills themselves with heroin in an act of self-contained free will than see another child murdered over illegal products. Ending prohibition in all its forms is necessary, continuing down this path doesn’t paint a pretty picture for the future. Drugs won’t go away. Ever. They’re here to stay, and the demand for drugs will rise every single day. Every day the groups that profit off of drugs profit more off them. We need to put this industry into the light, into the hands of people who will be held accountable. Otherwise some very dangerous groups will become very powerful in the coming decades. You may scoff at the Cartel, but they’ve pushed the Mexican military out of towns near the border to America, pushed the people out. It’s good for their business. As they get stronger, they’ll get bolder. Really think they’ll be satisfied sitting outside the border for long? How long before you hear about towns in Texas being attacked outright by the Cartel? If we legalize drugs the cartels take a huge hit. Competing with a legal corporate drug trade is just not at all within the Cartel’s (and similar group’s) abilities. For now. I’m afraid that we won’t push for this change, and if we don’t make it happen before the Cartels can compete with a legal drug trade something will change. I don’t know what, but I know we’d all find it very, very ugly and find that it’s too late to change it.

  45. The Truth says:

    By that logic we should also be banning automobiles, alcohol, clothing, pornography, etc. Parents spend money that could have been better spent on their children constantly – parental selfishness is in no way limited to drug expenditures.

    Doesn’t matter really, your comment is bullshit. You personally saw someone buy K2 instead of something for their baby? Uh-huh. Where did you witness this? How did you know so much about this individual’s finances? Much like the previous comment about Mercedes’ super athlete son (he was so going to go pro after high school) who was eaten alive by his own body after only four months of K2 use – it’s bullshit. Not true (Mercedes’ son, if he existed, may have gotten himself into meth, but as a former user I can attest that her four month timeline is absurd). Pro-prohibition voices seem incapable of providing even remotely convincing anecdotal stories to “prove” their points. Quit fucking lying, you hysteria junkies.

  46. Pat says:

    Spice isn’t a bad thing. I know many people who have beat hard drugs like meth and heroin by being allowed to buy and use spice legally. I think the DEA is just creating job security for their officers as every other government business is receiving large cuts.

  47. Pat says:

    sounds like your son was on heroin it only stays in ur system 3 days so can get around pee tests kids use blockers right out of our cupboards to hide it in tests as well. Spice has saved a few people I know from hard drugs.

  48. Pat says:

    Ive smoked spice and incense products for 3 years yes its been out that long. i don’t drink or do drugs spice was legal and my form of relaxation. Hell I want to be a test subject for it.

  49. Pat says:

    Totally agreed I used to smoke 4 grams a day of a form from the minit mart . I’m healthy!!!!

  50. Pat says:

    Exactly I totally agree thats what people do they make a mountain out of a mole hill my thought is kids are blaming other serious drug habits on Spice so they wont get found out parents open your eyes.

  51. Pat says:

    Do they get high on spice in jail or prison? If so how and r they smoking it getting done and then looking for their next fix? Doesnt make any sense you are a corrections officer and you let them smoke it in front of you?

  52. Pat says:

    Do they get high on spice in jail or prison? If so how and r they smoking it getting done and then looking for their next fix? Doesnt make any sense you are a corrections officer and you let them smoke it in front of you? If you are there DOC officer then shouldnt you uphold the law and arrest them then they wouldnt be looking for there next fix as you call it what a joke. Spice is so much better than alcohol which is now what people will have to do because spice is illegal.

  53. Shelby says:

    I have smoked k2 it doesn’t cause any of these symptoms however I have a son that is a recovering heroin addict. He has been clean for over a year and yes his new crutch became incense and spice I dont care it isnt a bad drug it has helped my son stay off heroin I think it could be used as an alternative instead of Methadone. Maybe the officials should look at it as an opportunity to help these young kids get off Meth and heroin because those are the drugs that are over taking our society. I smoked it everyday when it was legal.
    I truly believe spice and insence saved my sons life. We have him back now and spice doesnt cause mood swings either.

  54. Shelby says:

    OMG thats funny so under the new law if I get caught with Tylenol I should be arrested for possession of an illegal drug?

  55. Shelby says:

    Im sure there was another issue that caused her seizures. Or maybe she was allergic to it just like alot of other foods and drugs.

  56. Frugalone says:

    To AndrewS:

    What do you do when the one smoking Spice, is the man who fathered your children? The one who you don’t recognize anymore after knowing him for 25 years.? The one who sneaks to have the daily smoke?

    What do you do when you have, very nicely, conveyed your concern and you are told to “F-off” cuz it’s legal and you’re a buzz-kill? What do you do when the father of your children refuses counseling and chides you for having gone to a counselor? What do you do when everything you knew as life for over 20 years has done a complete 180?

    It’s not just kids using this stuff. It’s also 40-something-year-olds who don’t want to face reality. Reality is that people we love get older and die and we have to go on. The substances are an escape from reality and I’m not saying it’s an excuse. I’m calling it like it is. That’s why they are being used.

    I’m faced with many decisions about the future. I don’t enjoy not knowing what the day holds because I don’t know if the one “using” is going to be in an agitated state or not come evening time.

    Please, Andrew, think before you write. I’m not judging you, it’s just well, you don’t know the whole story.

  57. Pingback: Annual Use of Cannabimimetic (Spice/K2, etc) Products in 12th Graders | DrugMonkey

  58. JonnyB says:

    Really? How are you sure? The seizure was in all probability caused by the drug. Even the Dr. said so. Not everyone reacts the same way. Her friend did not have a seizure, but passed out in front of the hospital after getting a ride there after smoking this crap.

  59. JonnyB says:

    Check out an article on the “cracked dot com” website. Do a search for synthetic weed. I found it interesting.

  60. Dan says:

    Addiction is a personal issue that has nothing to do with these products, certainly people can become addicted to these products, however, so we are as a nation to caffeine and sugar, and no one is complaining about that here…Obesity IS the killer in America.

    For those that support these laws… go to Russia, where your hero Putin runs the place just like you would want it…but get out of our country, you are an insult to the very fiber we are made of here. Personal responsibility is lost because we have people wanting to control everyone, and people willing to be controlled by them.

  61. JonnyB says:

    Check out an article on the “cracked dot com” website. Do a search for synthetic weed. I found it interesting. Read the comments there, too.

  62. Frugalone says:

    Dan,

    Putin isn’t my hero, as you assume.

    The lesser of the two evils is marijuana. At least we know what it’s made of. “Spice” has who-knows-what sprayed on it and can be lethal–alone, or mixed with other meds.

    Walk a mile in my shoes, with my kids, and we’ll talk.

  63. ConcernedWife says:

    Thanks to my husbands lowlife k2 smoking brother my husband is now addicted to this stupid shit. And yes it is ruining him. He quit smoking because of probation and was doing fine until his brother introduced him to it in Oct. 2011 and now he has gone as far as stealing my.credit card for a fix of this crap. I’ve seen my husband change from a great father to now a lowlife who just plays mw3 and smokes this shit in the house in front of the kids like nothing. And it aggravates me and worries me because my kids r only 17mths and 3 mths. If this crap is bad imagine what the second hand smoke might do to them. He made me try it once and it was the worse experience of my fucking life! My heart was racing then it was beating slow I felt like I couldn’t breath. I threw up blood for god sakes! I went to work only to be sent home because I looked bad and was pale! I then took myself to the hospital. I felt like I was going to die. I don’t know how he smokes this crap and its coming to the point that I gave him the ultimatum its either us or that fake weed crack… If he doesn’t change his ways I will divorce him. My health and my kids health is at risk inhaling all this second hand smoke. He can go and destroy his body by himself. His teeth went from white to yellow to now turning to meth head teeth a ugly dark yellow. Even w this stuff being banned he can still go to a gas station or liqour store n find this stuff.

  64. Frugalone says:

    (((Concerned Wife)))

    I’m glad you are able to come here to vent. It’ REALLY helps to know others are dealing with the same situation. There aren’t a lot of places, on the net, that deal with the abuse of this product, unfortunately, so many are keeping quiet.

    Firstly, take a deep breath. I know the frustration you feel. I know what it’s like not to recognize the person you are dealing with. I know your pain.

    Do you have family and friends nearby who can support you when you feel ready to leave? If you do, you are blessed. All my family is about 1400 miles away.

    Don’t know how it is with you, but I sometimes feel like I have four children instead of three, and it’s frustrating.

    I makes me mad that they think we should accept it because it’s legal. When they pass a drug test, they think they have won. You know what? They haven’t. They will, at some point, screw up and be found out.

    Sweetie, I’d like to suggest something…if you can, start making a little nest egg for yourself in case the time comes when you need to depart. I know you have little ones. There are legitimate companies to do (online) surveys from home. There are mock jury trials (online) that will pay you to be a mock juror. I know this all may sound very stupid right now, but no one told me any of this. No one told me to put money away for myself, “just in case”. I wish someone had.

    Please come back and write whenever you need to. It’s OK to feel the way you do. Your life, as you knew it, has changed…and not for the better.

    You and yours are in my prayers.

    Frugalone

  65. Dan says:

    Good thing he did not get sick with Cancer, you would just run run run.

    If what you say is true, both you and your husband are ill and need help, but airing out your personal issues here and blaming a substance for the actions of your husband is exactly the traits of a parent that will fail. Personal Responsibility, why do you leave the kids in the room with him, why do you expose them to this? Are you taking prozac and xanax and eating twinkies all the time?

    You must understand addiction and love, which you obviously do not, and you must be dedicated. In our world of disposable marriages and single parent families…it is time to do your part and stay because you promised God you would…. That is called marriage, and it sucks sometimes, but you brought the kids into this world with this man, you owe it to them to stand up as a strong and capable woman and mother and stay, screw you and what you want… there will never be a day your kids want you and him to break up….never!

    So Pot is OK, but spice is not?

    Your poor kids….

  66. Dan says:

    Personal responsibility!

    Sadly lacking in your point of view. The worst thing for this situation is pity.

  67. Frugalone says:

    I don’t pity her, Dan. I’m encouraging her. Figure out the difference. Since I can relate to her situation, I have that right.

  68. Dan says:

    Maybe I feel guilty about my own Pity for her.

    lo siento!

  69. Frugalone says:

    Those words “In sickness and in health” don’t refer to this situation.

    I’m sure that if it was cancer, something her husband couldn’t help contracting, she’d be there to support him.

    Such is not the case. He is choosing to harm himself and Lord knows who else in the process.

    No, no child wants their parents to divorce. What you wrote in that respect is true. However, there are times when you have to choose what’s best and even though it’s painful, you have to do it. The lesser of the two evils.

    Concerned Wife won’t fail as a parent or anything else. She is looking for support to deal with this issue. That’s the first step in getting stronger and getting help.

  70. Dan says:

    I disagree. That point of view assumes things will always remain this way, and they wont, there are many challenges and changes in our lives through marriage, sometimes it really sucks to be married, tha’ts all I am saying, I do pity the woman and that’s no good either, she is lost and actually believes the substance has something to do with it, and it does not have anything to do with it, they, both of them from what I could gather, smoke Pot, and that’s ok?… only stopping because he is on probation… sense any problems here??
    I defend these products because of statements like this that are false, misdirected, and represent someone who simply does not understand personal responsibility.
    Them kids are young, why in the world would you cheer for a divorce and not a recovery of the relationship, that, I will never understand, your attitude is the issue with relationships and so many people have it. Sad…
    Maybe marriage should be limited to ten years so selfish adults can disregard their promises made to their children and spouses if the going gets tough and move on to whatever horizon they believe is better… I am disgusted with such a reference..
    I tell you and all others, if you think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, it is time you fertilized your grass, not smoke it.

  71. ConcernedWife says:

    Listen he was doing great when the baby was born in the end of Sept 2011… Thanks to his brother this is like any other drug its addictive. I’ve never had to deal with any types of drugs. I don’t drink I don’t smoke I only tried that synthetic crap once n i didn’t even smoke it out of a bowl or anything he blew the air in my mouth n I inhaled it and I don’t even know what xanax n prozac is… I work I take care of my kids. He hasn’t worked since he started smoking that crap in Oct thx to his brother. His brother is so addicted to this crap that when he isn’t able to get a fix he would smoke the residue and that stuff stained his teeth. These 2 r addicted n his brothers house reeks of that crap. He never smoked in front of the kids and I live in a small apartment where do I take the kids when he smokes that crap? outside in the snow? Ur not the one dealing with his Jekyll n Hyde episodes. I have nowhere to go and I’m afraid the second hand smoke that lingers will effect the kids. Where do u go when u have no friends or family and the only way out is a safe place but ur torn between love and can’t find the way to leave? He promised he would quit by new yrs but look at him smoking that crap like its weed. He takes hit after hit after hit and when he is high off of it he is dumb and doesn’t comprehend anything. One day I’m going to find him dead if he doesn’t get help but he refuses. So who else do I go to for help? Ur not walking in my shoes ur not here going through what I’m going through. So stop talking like u know our lives and what we’ve been through and are going through

  72. ConcernedWife says:

    So tell me Dan? Since u know so much… My husband only smoked pot like once or twice a mth… He smokes cigarrettes and he does that away from the kids. When he smokes that synthetic stuff he gets aggressive and has even gone as far as putting his hands on me and choking me. I just had surgery for a parotid gland in the end of dec so tell me what to do when ur daughter is there seeing him do this to her mother? And he isn’t even drunk! But high off that fake weed? My husband worked and was great father n now look at me sneaking off to try and write on here because I’m afraid of what he is capable of. He stood at home with the kids and I went to work yesterday and cleaned and cooked? And he has the nerve to tell me today is his day off and he is going to play ps3 and wants me to take care of the kids. When a woman is fed up there is nothing wrong with a divorce. 2 mths no job and the only financial stability is me. My kids will always come first. We made this pact in this marriage but God knows ppl make mistakes. If he is capable of putting his hands on me while high off that crap who knows what he might do to the kids when I’m at work!

  73. Frugalone says:

    Firstly, you, Dan, don’t have your facts straight, but “Concerned Wife” will straighten you out on that, (see her comments to you, below).

    I have to wonder what you are smoking.

    I had never smoked anything, in my life, until I tried Spice because my husband wanted me to join him. It wasn’t for me. I don’t like the “out of control” feeling it gives.
    Am I happy or proud that I tried it? No, and I told my husband I regretted doing it with him. I told him it was stupid of me. He still didn’t see a problem with it and he still doesn’t.

    I do agree with you on one point, that the substance isn’t the issue , but why it’s being used as a method of escape from reality. That is where counseling comes in. In my case, and in that of Concerned Wife (you’ll read this below), going for help has been suggested to those in the wicked grip of Spice. Both our husbands refuse counseling. In my case, I went for counseling and was chided for doing so. I was told it was a shame “I couldn’t talk with my husband” by my husband. Really? Like I’m going to have an intelligent and meaningful conversation with someone who is high on who knows what?

    This leads to the part of the marriage vows, Dan. In both cases, the wives are trying to hold the family together, (not running to an attorney as soon as things are rough). The wives are trying to keep the kids from dealing with their parents divorcing. The husbands, on the other hand, are only focused on themselves and where/when they will get their next fix.

    Dan, go back and read my original post from Dec. 15, 2011. If I was cheering for divorce, don’t you think I’d have filed by now?

    I’ve been married for over 23 years, so don’t you EVEN assume I’m a proponent of disposable relationships. My parents have been married for almost 60 years. If my husband truly loved me, he’d be at a counselor’s office trying to understand why he is addicted to substances.

    You need to get your facts together. The husbands are the ones who should practice Personal Responsibility in these two cases. They are to be heads of the household (not in a nasty way in which they think they make all the decisions). The wives are helpmates. How can we have any respect for someone who doesn’t even have respect for themself?

  74. Frugalone says:

    Dan,

    Don’t tell me about the kids not wanting their parents to divorce. I know that’s not an ideal situation. However, try to imagine what it’s like when your kids, who are now teens, ask you why they don’t leave their dad because of the way he is acting.

    I refuse to take the blame for my husband’s selfish antics and nothing you, nor anyone else says, will make me.

  75. Frugalone says:

    Concerned Wife–Jekyll and Hyde is exactly the way my mil described my husband. It’s sad and scary because you don’t know what to expect from one minute to the next. Makes me feel like I’m walking on eggshells at times.

    I remember in Dec, of last year, mine told me he’d stop when the new year started because of a new law going into effect. He said as long as it is legal, he’ll do it. Well, the law passed, but there was new stuff, sprayed with legal compounds, that he pursued.

    Addicts are great at projection. Don’t let him convince you that you are the reason he is abusing these substances. If he does, tell him that you’re willing to go to counseling to improve yourself–is he? When the answer is “No”, that pretty much tells you your level of importance to him. However, he may surprise you and want to change. I know you’ve asked him to get help already. I’m just suggesting this in case he blames you for his addiction. It may even be that you will need to tell him you’ll leave if he won’t quit and that will be enough to shake him up. However, if you are going to say you will leave if he doesn’t quit, make sure you are prepared to follow through. Don’t make it an empty threat. I pray you never need to resort to leaving, but the truth of the matter is, he’s not in control of his faculties. You are.

    My teens and I have all asked mine to stop with his drinking–as that’s what the kids see as the big problem. His response to all of us is “If you don’t like it, you can leave” Ummm….no! I’m the one who is still giving my all to these kids (homeschooling and parenting them), as I promised to do before they were born (and which I LOVE doing). I’m not the one who decided to throw Christianity out the window and then use that as an excuse to do anything I want. Again, addicts do not possess Personal Responsibility.

    If you can, please see about talking to someone at a shelter. You may not want to stay at one, but they may be able to give you other suggestions. Also, see about an Al Anon group in your area. Even if it’s to just glean from someone and to gain strength, it’s OK. Maybe see if they offer babysitting during the group meetings. Knowing your little ones are safe with you will help you to get more from the meetings.

    I sure hope this makes sense. I’ve been interrupted a few times while writing it. Again, I’m praying for you and yours.

    Don’t allow others, who can’t relate to what you are going through, discourage you or make you feel as though you are in the wrong. You are putting your babies first. My situation isn’t as intense as yours–with the physical abuse and the physical condition of the abuser. That’s why I’m trying to hold it together. Still, emotional abuse is just as damaging as physical abuse. I’ve dealt with the emotional stuff and I’m sure in my husband’s head, he justifies his actions by thinking that no one is being hurt because there is no physical abuse. How do I know this? I’ve heard him say it myself.

    Keep the faith and hold onto God for wisdom and strength. He will not let you down.

  76. neurospasm says:

    Hey, has anyone clicked on Dan’s URL? He’s with a trade association representing the lowlifes that seel this crap.
    http://www.therca.org
    He doesn’t care about you. he just wants to sell you his poison. Nice objectivity, Dan.

  77. Frugalone says:

    No, I didn’t neurospasm. Thanks for pointing that out. I had a feeling he has an interest in it just because of his attitude.

  78. ConcernedWife says:

    I’m getting worried now because these past couple of weeks my husband has been waking up vomiting every night… At first I blamed him eating a lot and now I feel its that crap… How do u get help to someone who doesn’t want any… Why is he so blind to see what this stuff is doing to him. Yesterday I even called poison control and put them on speaker so he can hear it first hand and nothing. He said he was going to quit after this last little bag. Guess we shall see. Regardless I feel like I am still getting a divorce. Due to other reasons as well. Doesn’t mean I’m going to stop being with him. This is his last chance either he stops or I will go as far as telling his probation officer next time he goes. Thanks Frugalone for the support. I hope those who r going through the same thing can know u r not alone… This stuff is death. And for those who smoke it I hope u don’t get any long term side effects in the future. Think of it as absestos… U don’t see side effects of exposure now but eventually w time u will

  79. Dan says:

    well you had me thinking I stood corrected… then you post this neurotic statement..

    I hope you find peace…. certainly a sad situation, but I absolutely believe it is a result of a disease, and not a product.

    I am from the health Care world and see these compounds as replacements for Oxycontin / Hydrocodone, however bad your situation, it is rare compared to the devastation of opioid narcotics.

    Good luck.

  80. Dan says:

    My guess is that he is using a compound called ZZ-1 which is on many of the “fake pot” so called products because it is non cannabinoid and delivers a euphoria. So it avoids any laws regarding synthetic cannabinoids….It is related to the devastating bath salts, without the speed effect.

    The cannabinoids do not produce this effect when used, maybe upon withdrawal after chronic use, but not during use. The stimulants and hallucinogenics such as 5MEO DALT can deliver a “reverse dis-inhibition” reaction and cause aggressive behavior and the like.

    Look into zz1 (aka MPPP but there are three different MPPP’s) and 5 MEO Dalt

    It is very unlikely a cannabinoid. And as the new laws take effect, the result will be many many more non cannabinoid compounds on the market…. vary frightening.

    There is your answer!

  81. Dan says:

    Wrong, I represent the retailers that get busted by our low grade police force for felony crimes when they are simply selling the stuff your friends want to buy.

    I defend you from overreaching laws that impede such things as cancer research and pain relief therapies… actually, I am the COO of a health care company and see these compounds as a very promising medications for pain relief and the treatment of cancer…. get you act together dummy..

    Go take a xanax and eat a twinkie..,read the site and learn.

    Yo may be late to your Hitler Youth meeting…. hurry!!!

    This goes to the US Senate on Monday…idiot…

    Origins of the Synthetic Cannabinoids to be banned by the Federal Government.

    Retail Compliance Association.

    In recent months there has been many stories in the media regarding so called incense and potpourri products that people have been smoking to get an effect or “high” from them. These products are typically treated with compounds that work with the human body endocannabinoid system. The compounds were developed for human research and application as pharmaceuticals for a variety of conditions. The media stories often say that there are backyard chemists and irresponsible people creating these compounds, when that could not be further from the truth. Most of the compounds were developed under government grants to universities, and with private money from pharmaceutical companies. These are promising compounds, one of which is shown to “cure” an inoperable brain tumor known as a Glioma (WIN55-212).

    The compounds with initials as their prefix are in many cases the initials of the chemists that developed the compounds. This in no way means the compounds are related in chemical structure or effect, they simply have the inventors initials within the compounds commercial name. “JWH” is John W. Huffman, of Clemson University and “AM” is Alexandros Makriyannis of Northeastern University.

    Compound Developing Company Medical applications

    CP47,497 Pfizer Pain Reliever (analgesic)
    JWH018 Clemson University Pain Reliever (analgesic)
    JWH073 Clemson University Pain Reliever (analgesic)
    JWH019 Clemson University Pain Reliever (analgesic)
    JWH200, WIN 55225 Clemson University Pain Reliever (analgesic)
    JWH250 Clemson University Pain Reliever (analgesic)
    JWH081 Clemson University Pain Reliever (analgesic)
    JWH122 Clemson University Pain Reliever (analgesic)
    JWH210 Clemson University Pain Reliever (analgesic)
    JWH398 Clemson University Pain Reliever (analgesic)
    AM2201 Tyler Merrill Pain Reliever (analgesic)

    The advantage these compounds have as pain relievers is significant. They offer potentially better relief from many different types of chronic pain than Morphine, and have an extremely low probability of death bu overdose. This is because these compounds do not depress the respiratory system, like Oxycotin or Hydrocodone and other narcotics that do in fact depress the respiratory track. In fact these compounds could replace the deadly opiods.

    From PUBmed:
    Pharmacological preparations of cannabinoid compounds have a variety of therapeutic uses in medicine, including different pain syndromes, but have not been previously reported as beneficial for cluster headache. We present a patient with cluster headache who was refractory to multiple acute and preventive medications but successfully aborted his attacks with recreational marijuana use; subsequent use of dronabinol provided equally effective pain relief. The beneficial effect may be related to the high concentration of cannabinoid receptors in the hypothalamus, which has been implicated as a site of dysfunction in neuroimaging studies of patients with cluster headache.
    ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19220500 )

    They were developed mostly from grants awarded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse or NIDA in an effort to establish new pain therapies via the CB1 and CB2 receptors. Prior to that Synthetic Cannabinoids were developed by the US Army as early as 1946 with Col. James Ketchums’ creation, EA2233 or Red Oil. (source http://www.alternet.org/drugs/92049/?page=entire )
    The cannabinoid receptor agonist, WIN 55, 212-2, attenuates tumor-evoked hyperalgesia through peripheral mechanisms.
    Several lines of evidence suggest that cannabinoids can attenuate various types of pain and hyperalgesia through peripheral mechanisms……… These results suggest that peripherally-administered cannabinoids may be effective in attenuating cancer pain.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18486111

    The Witch Hunt of Dangerous
    The term “witch-hunt” since the 1930s has also been in use as a metaphor to refer to moral panics in general (frantic persecution of perceived enemies). S.605 is too a witch hunt as there is no evidence of significant teen abuse relative to other drugs such as prescription painkillers and amphetamines, as well as alcohol and tobacco, all of which far outweigh the impact of these products on youth. The DEA has a study as well that does not show these products to be dangerous relative to other like adult oriented products.

    Some interesting points to ponder when thinking that the products are dangerous.

    Poison control centers report 0 deaths from overdose, on synthetic cannabinoids, while tobacco killed 37 kids last year from overdose, about 80% of those were under one year of age and ate cigarette butts.

    In Florida for instance, seven (7) people die everyday from prescription drug abuse, five times that of all illegal drugs combined.
    In 2008 more people died in Florida from prescription drug overdoses than from car crashes.
    (source, Florida Poison Control http://www.poisoncentertampa.org/drug-abuse.aspx )

    Compare the risk profiles of the drugs these compounds are designed to replace with the risk profile of the target products of the law, this information is also from the Florida Poison Control Center

    Oxycotin:
    How does OxyContin affect the body?
    When pain pills are taken by a person who does not have chronic pain, the results are nausea, extreme drowsiness, constipation, dizziness, sweating and weakness. When a strong dose is taken, a person can have cold & clammy skin, slow heartbeat, constricted pupils, muscle weakness, lethargy, coma and shallow breathing. Long-term use of OxyContin is addictive.
    How is it abused?
    People seeking an alternative to heroin often try OxyContin. They chew the time-release tablets for a quicker high. Some crush the tablet to snort or inject it. Classified as a Schedule II drug, (S.605 / HR 1254 places the cannabinoids into schedule I) prescriptions are often obtained fraudulently, then sold for up to $180 per tablet. In many robberies of pharmacies and residences, only the Oxycontin is stolen.

    Are there any dangers to smoking this incense?
    Synthetic marijuana has caused agitation (extreme nervousness), a fast heartbeat, increased blood pressure, tremors (shaking), vomiting, hallucinations and seizures. Many who have smoked the incense say it’s not the mellow high that they expected. In 2010, over 1500 calls to poison control centers have involved bad trips and illness. Many people ended up in hospitals. In addition to the drug effects, smoking incense can cause lung damage.

    Ironically, this law will place these substances on Schedule I, and Oxycotin, with all of its incredible dangers, and the target drug that could be replaced by these compounds, is schedule II

    Toxicology studies on JWH018 results:

    CYP450 Assay
    Results: JWH-018 will probably interact with the metabolism of other drugs.
    hERG Binding Assay
    Results: JWH-018 does not interfere with these channels.
    Cytotoxicity Assay
    Results: JWH 018 is not cytotoxic at low concentrations
    GreenScreen HC Genotoxicity Assay
    Results: JWH018 does not damage DNA
    Rat Repeat Toxicity Assay
    Results: According to FDA guidelines the human equivalent dose is 0.016mg/kg. At this level no abnormalities were noted.
    Rat Pharmacokinetics
    Results: JWH018 is distributed well through the Rats tissues. Metabolism and Excretion are normal with a serum half life of about 2 hours.

  82. Dan says:

    Here is some real advice….

  83. Dan says:

    don’t be so weak… spine up and get through this.. quit whinning.. stay with your husband.. you know you have not been perfect either… forgiveness is a better virtue than bitterness.

  84. ConcernedWife says:

    For ur information when ur husband gets abusive because I threw away his fake pot then there is a problem. I’ve never seen someone react like that. I was scared for myself and my daughter and he choked me and said i owe him 20 dollars and we are driving to the city which is an hour away to get him more. Which I didn’t. Getting hurt because I got rid of his “medicine” as he refers it is not worth spending time on someone who won’t get better. Im happy he is gone so I don’t have to deal with his psychotic episodes. My kids well being is more important than this marriage. and ur concern doesn’t matter. Only god can judge me.

  85. Dan says:

    Yes you made a promise and guarantee to God… and are more than willing to break it..
    You may find acceptance a much faster way to your end goal than resistance…… its a matter of physics and faith. Maybe not in that order.

    No one stays the same for very long…not even you.

  86. Dan says:

    This is my interest…..

    there is evidence that some cannabinoids may be able to inhibit malignant skin tumors. However, synthetic cannabinoids that are more potent than THC, have proven to be more effective in this regard, especially WIN-55,212-2 and JWH-133

    http://medicalmarijuana.com/medical-marijuana-treatments/Eczema

  87. JonnyB says:

    Oh BTW it was called Happy Tiger. Only takes one time to kill you. Keep in mind, she was an experienced weed user.

  88. DR Mad says:

    Agree with Dan, the DEA attempting to keep Cannibis and all synthetics on Schedule I of the CSA, why is that?

    Furthermore, why does Pres. Obama turn his back?

  89. ricky says:

    my 24 year old brother smoked k2 two nights ago sent him into 7 grandma sizures. his blood and urine and ct scan came back negative for drugs the doc had to put him in a medical coma cause he just kept having sizures.he is still in that coma and they are going to wing him off meds and try to bring him back slowly the neurologist linked it to k2.so i am so happy this ban is taking place .if marijuana was legal you would not be having all these kids looking for a new substance to smoke.

  90. pat says:

    WTH they dont even sale K2 anymore so guess again if someone is selling K2 they need to be sued because it is illegal

  91. DAN HATER says:

    You post lacks some critical evidence, such as toxicology tests

    LOL!!!! WHO THE HELL IS GOING TO POST A TOXICOLOGY TEST ON A STUPID FORUM??

  92. DAN HATER says:

    ALSO DAN, WAYYYY TOO MUCH INFORMATION.

  93. tem says:

    ive done every drug just about including ayahuasca many time and a 15 year veteran of herb and was smoking different kinds of spice for about a year and seemed fine was a tad strong though. so prob smoked spice around 100 or more times with no issue until the last time when smoking one of the more potent ones i couldnt move and definately havent felt the same since. although the good thing is i have no fear of anything anymore after that lol because im pretty sure i died that day

  94. tem says:

    i would nt touch that stuff unless you you dont care no more there is evil in it

  95. dr.paloma says:

    couldnt agree more. the legal ramifications of marijuana or any of the synthetics i have personally tried and enjoyed many, many times are much more detrimental than any side effects of the drug.

  96. Amy says:

    Please stop these internet drug dealers! They have websites where ex-cons, lowlifes selling K2 and other drugs by private message on these sites. These people are mixing dangerous chemicals like they are scientist and then selling them to people who can be harmed. These websites need shutdown ASAP!
    http://www.euphoricknowledge.com/ you have to register so they can keep the forum private.

  97. fuckallyall says:

    go fuck your self stop the internet drug deals gtfo stop the goverment they push cigs an boz like a fucking cartel half millon people die a year from tobacco but thats fine now spice is the real problem make it illegal safe graud the whole world and once u make it illegal you have something else for the cartel to make millons of dollars off each year that dogs cant smell good idea

  98. Dan says:

    Amy,

    Come on.. you are not that stupid…..

    Its sold at your local gas station and smoke shop.. Tax paying businesses..

    educate yourself.

  99. Kevin V says:

    agree with some of your comments. But marijuana isn’t the issue here, its synthetic drugs man. No ones bashing the all natural stuff, it’s the chemical bullshit that’s the garbage and issue at hand. so i guess just get your arguments strait before posting But I’m truly glad marijuana has helped your sanity, but has k2 contributed to that?? I’d really like to know if you can compare the two high’s at all. If you are a true sensi lover like myself, you can stop smoking at any time, and there’s no withdrawals or hallucination etc.. I have talked to people that say the withdrawals from k2 is worse than crack.. Doesn’t sound like a positive thing at all.

  100. Kevin V says:

    o wow your so radical.. half of you fucks defending spice probably have never even smoked the shit, you just cant stand the thought of another precious right of yours being taken away. “I should be able to smoke whatever i want uncle sam!” And you have a audacity to say it’s not addictive, and helps ween you off of other drugs.. guess what dumbass, your hooked on that drug now, try and get off of it. see if u dont hate yourself any more than you already do.

  101. Dan says:

    Not the test, just the results… it is important to have some proof… not just an opinion that is incorrect or not substantiated.

    I don’t think you are that stupid… but maybe you are, I don’t know you so I will have to assume your are not… oh well.. your posts say differently.

  102. Cass says:

    I only read about 1/2 of these comments, and for those who say spice isn’t harmful, or it’s not addicting, or lets blame drug abusers money problems on the economy, let me ask you this: are you yourself addicted to this shit, or is someone you LOVE addicted? Probably not, or you wouldn’t be on here defending it. My husband is a FULL BLOWN ADDICT to this crap…and has chosen to spend his last little bit of money on spice instead of diapers, formula, bills, gas, food, etc…Please, blow some more smoke out your asses.

    As for the mothers & those who’ve seen this garbage effect themselves or loved ones first hand, I hope that they can come to a breaking point, and really see how bad this crap is :)

  103. Jim says:

    I disagree. The banning of the spice the first time was one of the best things that ever happened to me. It’s Highly addicting and I can’t begin to tell you how bad it is for your health. I only smoked it for 40 days. Non stop all day every day with my friends. We had to, we bankrupted ourselves sold every thing we could to buy more. I personally have little exp with drugs. I smoke marijuana socially from time to time and really enjoy that relaxing high. I never smoked cigs or nothing. This shit came up and hit me like a ton of bricks. Before i knew it i was retarded, i couldnt breath, i could only sleep for a few hours at a time with up waking up for cravings. Just recently in michigan it was unbanned. I did it again but i knew better this time. After 2 days I quit and I had to stop hanging out with certain friends. I wish it would be a permanent blanket ban nation wide cuz everytime i drive past that gas station or a smoke shop I get that little tug.

  104. sarah colombo says:

    Reefer Madness and propaganda like it are part of the problem, as this film, and others of its era and ilk are NOT accurate about the actual effects and dangers of the drug they present. Not that real dangers cannot be cited. So, people learned to distrust the information given by “experts”, and parents etc. Or did you know that Reefer Madness was not supposed to be a joke?
    We all make poor decisions at times no matter what we are told—it is nothing but sad when a poor choice results in permanent harm. Blame being human.

  105. Areyoukidding says:

    So because its highly addicting TO YOU and YOU have no self control you think it should be banned for everyone. Great logic.

  106. holy cow says:

    woa everyone. Calm down. A few facts all should consider…1 adiction depends on the user. I know people who can do and have done, many drugs without being adicted. 2 anything that people want, they will have. Making something illegal will only remove the regulations controling it. Please wikipedia the proabition. 3 stay on topic. 4 synthetic marijuanna is harmless. I used to smoke weed regularly, i quit in pursuit of a better job. Now on ocasion i will smoke the fake stuff. I have never felt adicted. I have had some pretty crazy trips smokimg the stuff. Depending on the compound used i would asume the effects differ. But to be honest, some of the trips ive had where intence enough to prolly trigger panic attacks in people who are not in the rigt mind set. So, golden rule of life, if you are going to try something new, bring an expirienced person with.

  107. holy cow says:

    The point is, some people can handle drugs, some should stear clear. Sounds like a couple of your husbands are the later. Stop blaming the brother or the “drug”. Blame the persons mental condition. Do not blame youe self. Do not blame inatimate objects, do not blame the goverment. Take a closer look at the way a persons mind functions. Its chemisty, bring a new chemical into a compound and you could have penicilan or an explosion….. Just a few thoughts of mine after reading this….

  108. jess says:

    I can’t believe some are saying you have to have self control…that has nothing to do with it, I did not know the danger in spice.

    I believe spice is the most dangerous drug out there I smoked spice for the FIRST time and I am not the same person.

    I experienced a near death seizure. Which felt like a heart attack, mind you I’m 19. So it’s not self control. This synthetic drug is poison !

    THIS HAS TO BE BANNED PERIOD. OR ELSE PEOPLE WILL DIE

  109. jess says:

    @ tem I think I was close to dying too. Just one hit my first time I couldn’t see calm down hear breathe function for over 3 hours, this stuff can kill and most of you on hear are ignorant. That was the WORST thing that ever happened to me.

  110. jt says:

    bottom line…. big alcohol… they are the only ones that gain from a ban… people don’t… drug dealers don’t I.D. ….. The big beverage needs to be investigated… they need some competition.. let lobby our legislators to investigate… thats where the false reporting comes from… The presstitutes are being paid by corporate alcohol….. start fighting back by researching and and exposing this corporate grip on our substance use…… Let’s get real…. stpo drinking… they want you to be their bitch start boycotting big alcohol… no money no lies….

  111. markishere says:

    i say legalize all drugs. but i have to say its short lived and very addictive. i have ruined my life over spice. im not saying its not possable to be responsible but come on people if u have a chance at instant good feelings. u will make any excuse. just say no. id rather be addicted to meth

  112. Nevermore says:

    Fuck you “drugs should be legalized” assholes and fuck your “rights.” My daughter is strapped to a hospital bed right now thanks to “spice”, and we don’t know if she’ll survive, let alone be back to normal. All because someone convinced her “hey, it won’t hurt you, that’s all propaganda from the MSM, you can’t trust that, go ahead and take a puff.” Well, she did. And her, and our, nightmare is only beginning .

    Legalize? The only thing that should be “legalized” is hanging you filthy bastards from lightpoles.